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Thread: Tabqati Jeddojuhd (IMT Pakistan) splits

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    Default Tabqati Jeddojuhd (IMT Pakistan) splits

    The largest section of Alan Woods' International Marxist Tendency, Tabqati Jeddojuhd, known in English as the Struggle, has split down the middle.

    This organisation has worked inside the Pakistan People's Party for nearly three decades and was recently claiming to have more than 3,000 members. If those claims are taken at face value, that means that it accounted for almost two thirds of the membership of the entire IMT.

    The split issue grew out of the entryist strategy of the organisation. The PPP is not a labour party in the traditional sense, but is instead owned by the Bhutto family and held together in large part through patronage. The IMT used to have an MP, elected as a PPP candidate, Manzoor Ahmed Choudry. This MP was widely feted throughout the IMT, until he lost his seat in recent elections. At the time the IMT claimed that this was due to vote fraud, despite the fact that the PPP elsewhere greatly increased their representation.

    After his defeat, the former MP took a job as trade union spokesperson for the PPP leadership, a role clearly at odds with any claim to be building a Marxist opposition within the PPP. The international leadership of the IMT decided to drive him out of the organisation and he was expelled from the Pakistan section. Unfortunately for them, the former MP had great authority within the organisation and, as a result of so many years comfortable existence within the PPP, many of the groups leaders and members didn't see anything wrong with his actions.

    Manzoor Ahmed was expelled by the leading committee of Tabqati Jeddojuhd by 22 votes to 18 with 2 abstentions. The 18 leadership members who voted with him and the 2 who abstained were then expelled in turn. As the split has filtered down through the membership, the organisation has divided almost in half, with Manzoor Ahmed leading the slightly bigger part, while Lal Khan leads the minority still with the IMT. Due to the size of the country, the split is still working itself out in some of the more remote branches and areas and it is expected, as with most big splits, that a large chunk of the membership will drop out altogether.

    Neither side has publically commented on the split yet. Even most IMT members outside Pakistan have been kept in the dark.

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    Very interesting. This all is very detailed and you're the second person I hear claiming this, but could you elaborate on your source or are you yourself involved in this process?

    As far as I can see now it's either one of two things that happened:
    1. Either the IMT has neglected and ignored their PPP section (which is unlikely) and now that their MP was voted out of parliament (despite PPP growth?!) and he has taken another role in the PPP the IMT suddenly concludes that this ex-MP no longer fits inside the IMT and kicks him out, splitting away a third of their total membership in the international.
    2. Or, what I think is more likely, the IMT knew about Manzoor Ahmed Choudry's reformist stance and supported it, being too happy about having an MP at all, for years. This has created a lot of support for Manzoors ideas and maybe Manzoor is even a logical conclusion of internal reformist processes as an effect of being inside the PPP despite everything. Now the IMT has made a shift to the left, creating this split.

    But the picture is still incomplete for me, so I can very well be wrong.
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    Number 1 is clearly incorrect - the Pakistani section and Manzoor himself are presented as infallible gods inside the IMT and they certainly were not neglected.

    Number 2 is mostly correct, except for the IMT moving to the left - in fact, it has just become that much harder to patch together the miserable creature called a Pakistani section. God I love it when the shit hits the fan.

    OI OI OI and Teis have not been commenting for a while, supposedly they are waiting for Alan to turn the keys in their back again. Sadly he might not longer have any thoughts to feed them with.
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    1)The OP singed on revleft only to make this post!

    Now the post count please.

    2)If he is not himself in the IMT (which is the most probable!) then how does he know all these details while members of the IMT don't?

    3) The statement that half the section split is a slander.

    Of course some people left with ex-comrade Manzoor as he was an influencial person, but Khan is even more influencial and I am sure that he is 10 times more influencial and respected than Manzoor. He can certainly hold the section toghether.

    4) Can't you guys wait for the anouncement on marxist.com ?

    Trust me you ll seem ridiculus. You talk about a big split nd a disaster when it is highly unlikely that one happened.

    5) This happiness by Yehuda confirms my theory that those who can't build anything put all their efforts in slandering and destroying what someone else is building.
    And you dare call yourself a revolutionary.....


    Comrade Q-collective of course who actualy builds something had the opposite attitude than Yehuda .That is why I view the CWI as brothers.

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    Can it, Grantbot. Your dirty little secret is out, despite the fact that you have kept for yourself for all this time. The only reason now that you would publish anything on Marxist.com is to cover your asses. And the CWI and IMT are now brothers? That's fresh. What happened to the CWI commiting "a historical crime against the Marxist tendency"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by OI OI OI View Post
    1)The OP singed on revleft only to make this post!
    I am new here. That is not a secret. Nor does it have anything to do with whether or not my post is true.

    Now the post count please.

    Quote Originally Posted by OI OI OI View Post
    2)If he is not himself in the IMT (which is the most probable!) then how does he know all these details while members of the IMT don't?
    The fact that rank and file members of the IMT outside of Pakistan generally do not know what is going on at the moment is an indictment of democracy in the IMT, not an argument against my post.

    I know all these details through Trotskyist activists in Pakistan. The Trotskyist movement there is still heavily intertwined as all of the major groups have their origins in the same CWI/IMT milieu. My sources include members of Tabqati Jeddojuhd, the Labour Party Pakistan and the Socialist Movement Pakistan. All of them are agreed on the fact that Manzoor Ahmed has been expelled, that a substantial section of the leadership has been expelled and that a major split has happened throughout the organisation.

    Some slight differences do exist between the accounts of my sources, in that some are of the view that the Manzoor Ahmed group is the larger remnant of the organisation, while others think that the Lal Khan group is larger. This confusion is understandable given the size of the organisation, the somewhat inflated membership claims and the remoteness of some branches. All are agreed that it is a major split.

    Quote Originally Posted by OI OI OI View Post
    3) The statement that half the section split is a slander. Of course some people left with ex-comrade Manzoor as he was an influencial person, but Khan is even more influencial and I am sure that he is 10 times more influencial and respected than Manzoor. He can certainly hold the section toghether.
    Just a day or two ago you posted in the IMT=reformist thread that Manzoor Ahmed "was kicked out of the organisation and that was about it". Now you have moved on to saying that "some people left with" him, i.e. that there was a split. This, I suppose, is progress.

    Your faith in the wiles of Lal Khan is touching, but hardly evidence of anything much.

    Quote Originally Posted by OI OI OI View Post
    4) Can't you guys wait for the anouncement on marxist.com ?

    Trust me you ll seem ridiculus. You talk about a big split nd a disaster when it is highly unlikely that one happened.
    "Highly unlikely" is a clear indication that you don't know and are just reflexively defending your organisation.

    As for waiting for an announcement on marxist.com, there has been no announcement so far, despite the fact that the expulsions began some time ago. So I won't hold my breath. If marxist.com does eventually see fit to make a comment on the biggest split your organisation has suffered since it was founded, it will doubtless be a whitewash, seeking to minimise the significance of both the split and the organisations only MP.

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    Default ¿Where can you contact Manzoor?

    Being myself an IMT expelled member (a few months before than the split in Pakistan, and in another country) I think that the following explanation is probably correct:

    "2. Or, what I think is more likely, the IMT knew about Manzoor Ahmed Choudry's reformist stance and supported it, being too happy about having an MP at all, for years. This has created a lot of support for Manzoors ideas and maybe Manzoor is even a logical conclusion of internal reformist processes as an effect of being inside the PPP despite everything. Now the IMT has made a shift to the left, creating this split."

    Even doe I think that talking about a Shift to the left by the IMT is just a especulation.

    But I would like to say somethings about it:

    1) IMT menbership reports must be taken with a grain of salt. But the Pakistani growthreports where quite serious. Therefore I must say that "The Struggle" account for at least two thirds of the IMT total membership.

    2) Regular Membership of the IMT outside pakistan didn´t know much about what was happening there apart from the triunfalist reports given in the "world congress".

    3) Knowing about the IMT internal burocratic methods elsewhere, I´m not surprissed that those in the leadership that supported Mansoor where also expelled.

    4) I personally know both Manzoor and Lal Khan. The first one was more of a "freelance" inside the IMT and with big links with the PPP leadership. Lal Khan is more of the type of an internal organiser, witch have construct his authority in the aparatus for a long time. Therefore I think that the Lal-Khan "fraction" will be the biggest (but not with a great diference, anyway)

    5) Not surprisingly there have been no explanation of this split in the IMT website (apart of some references to the "ex-marxist" Manzoor Ahmed). I would like to know more about this issue, so... those anybody knows how i can contact with Manzoor Ahmed or any of his followers.

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    Hi Redlover, thank you for your insights and welcome to this site

    Now, as we still haven't heard a lot (or anything actually) about this split, I'm doubting there was a split to speak of in the first place. If it really "splitted down the middle" it would have been obvious and would have been reported by other organisations too. This is not the case as far as I know. That said, I do not like the secrecy surrounding the kicking out of Manzoor at all, covering up rotting corpses doesn't work and will come back to haunt you in general. Transparency and open debate is key.

    We will have to see...
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    Default perhaps, perhaps...

    The problem with secrecy (and all internal affairs related with the IMT are extremely secretive) is that you cannot know for sure whats happening in reality... perhaps there have been no split, or perhaps the expelled group (if its remains organiced) has decided not to make things public looking for a future return to the IMT.

    Any way, if we dont heard the version from Manzoor or one of his close followers it´s all especulation.

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