Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 29

Thread: Why Can't We Unify?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    40
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Why Can't We Unify?

    Never mind the thought of a broad left coalition, we Trotskyists can't even seem to cooperate within our various parties and organizations. SAlt, ISO, SEP and others I may have missed have much more in common with each other than they have differences but try to get them together for a common goal. Constant squabbling amongst ourselves is not conducive to the overthrow of capitalism. Workers of the world unite!


    Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    93
    Organisation
    Socialist Worker Party
    Rep Power
    1

    Default

    it is because these parties are headed by people in their 70s, they are from the ear when stalin was actually alive, and communism actually was a real political movement, we should use this site for us young people to start uniting the parties, I am a member of the SWP that doesn't call itself that but we basically are do you know any parties we should unify with make sure they are rlly similar

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    40
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    As I understand it, the SWP has pretty much abandoned Trotskyism. Correct me if I am wrong. As far as I can tell, it it the only Castroist party in the US.
    I'm not being disrespectful. Castro achieved the near impossible in throwing off the yoke of US imperialism and who doesn't appreciate the example set by Che Guevara?
    I just don't believe Cuba's revolutionary model has any relevance to the US or Western Europe for example. Cuba's revolution was achieved by
    small bands of dedicated guerillas striking from their mountain strongholds. Castro also was primarily a nationalist.
    Answering your question - Socialist Alternative, the Socialist Equality Party and International Socialist Organization are all very similar in message. Their main differences appear to be in execution.

    Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    760
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    4

    Default

    Book smart socialists argue over theory. I bet you if we all met on the street; Armed and across the pitch from some fascists; we would all see eye to eye at least for the skirmish.
    "It is only by the abolition of the state, by the conquest of perfect liberty by the individual, by free agreement, association, and absolute free federation that we can reach Communism - the possession in common of our social inheritance, and the production in common of all riches." ~Peter Kropotkin
    "Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite!" ~Charles Chaplin
    "Communism is Anarchy. You can't regulate or reform your way to communism; it can only be achieved by direct action against state, class and capital."

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    40
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    True, but we'd be much better off if we had a plan to deal with those fascists. That's where vanguardism comes in. The more knowledgeable Comrades train the newer recruits on how to deal with these situations.

    Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    40
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Side note to Raul Castro. On matters of agreement we should indeed work together. I appreciate your enthusiasm. Yes, the youth are the future of Socialism.

    Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    867
    Rep Power
    27

    Default

    There are a lot of legitimate theoretic and practical differences and more than a few petty personal ones that lead to the Trotskyist movement being divided. Some believed, as Trotsky himself did, that the Soviet Union was a workers state that had degenerated but ultimately still had the characteristics of a workers state and held the potential for workers to overcome the bureaucracy and re-establish themselves as the real power and so this meant that Trotskyists with these opinions would still offer 'support' for the Soviet Union as a workers state even as they offered criticism to the Stalinist bureaucracy. Some believed that the Soviet Union had degenerated into a form of state capitalism and so the Soviet Union was nothing more than another imperialist capitalist entity operating on the global level and so shouldn't receive the 'support' of Trotskyists.

    Perhaps these sorts of stances mattered more during a period when the Soviet Union still existed but I always felt when I was a part of the CWI that it was almost an irrelevance. I was a member of the Socialist Party of England and Wales and we worked together in campaigns with the UK SWP. There was often a lot of petty disagreements that frustrated me and, I feel, turned off outsiders who wanted to get involved. There's not an easy solution to this.
    Strengthened and hardened in the revolutionary melting-pots of the great industrial centres, toughened by repeated economic struggles, victim of crisis and unemployment, witness of the blatant injustice which allows the same cities to contain the palaces of the parasites and the slums of the workers, the proletariat is certainly the revolutionary class, and consequently the only class whose violence can put an end to the social war. - Victor Serge


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    40
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Is it really so hard to work together on issues we all agree on? Let's work toward the International Socialist Ideal and leave theoretical discussions of minute detail to internet forums and committee meetings where they belong.

    Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    867
    Rep Power
    27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jdneel View Post
    Is it really so hard to work together on issues we all agree on? Let's work toward the International Socialist Ideal and leave theoretical discussions of minute detail to internet forums and committee meetings where they belong.

    Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk
    Many socialist groups do unify on basic principles and work together on campaigns. However, theory informs practice.
    Strengthened and hardened in the revolutionary melting-pots of the great industrial centres, toughened by repeated economic struggles, victim of crisis and unemployment, witness of the blatant injustice which allows the same cities to contain the palaces of the parasites and the slums of the workers, the proletariat is certainly the revolutionary class, and consequently the only class whose violence can put an end to the social war. - Victor Serge


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    40
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Whether or not the former Soviet Union was a deformed worker's state or state capitalism informs most of us precious little. These are the type of issues that divide us.

    Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

  11. #11
    The Garbage Disposal Unit's Avatar
    The Garbage Disposal Unit is offline Proliferatin' The Commune Supporter
    Forum Moderator
    Global Moderator
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Halifax, NS
    Posts
    3,386
    Organisation
    Sounds authoritarian . . .
    Rep Power
    70

    Default

    I think the real question ought to be around what this unity might look like, in practical terms. Are we talking about coalitions? If so, on what basis, for what duration? Are we talking about a singular party? If so, with autonomy for organizations/collectives within it, or with organizations dissolving themselves into a single body? Etc.
    The life we have conferred upon these objects confronts us as something hostile and alien.

    Formerly Virgin Molotov Cocktail (11/10/2004 - 21/08/2013)

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to The Garbage Disposal Unit For This Useful Post:


  13. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    40
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    All good questions. Good questions that must be explored. I have never seen so much interest in Socialism in my entire life. Polls are showing that young people in the US now have a more positive view of Socialism than Capitalism. Strike while the iron is hot!



    Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to jdneel For This Useful Post:


  15. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    traveling (U.S.)
    Posts
    11,441
    Blog Entries
    4
    Rep Power
    56

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jdneel View Post

    Whether or not the former Soviet Union was a deformed worker's state or state capitalism informs most of us precious little. These are the type of issues that divide us.

    Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

    Either way it's socialism-in-one-country, which is *backsliding* from the necessary initial 'workers of the world unite'.

    We should see this issue as being *internal* to the revolutionary left and act appropriately to that.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Garbage Disposal Unit View Post

    I think the real question ought to be around what this unity might look like, in practical terms. Are we talking about coalitions? If so, on what basis, for what duration? Are we talking about a singular party? If so, with autonomy for organizations/collectives within it, or with organizations dissolving themselves into a single body? Etc.

    I've come to see all of this on-the-ground stuff in terms of 'platform (policies) - strategies - tactics'.

    If the relative politics-in-common is cohesive enough to support a certain platform-in-common, supported from below by a certain expanse / segment of the political spectrum, then various 'strategies' can be moved into place on top of that platform, with various take-it-or-leave-it 'tactics' around those strategies.


    [3] Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals






    [21] Ideologies & Operations




  16. The Following User Says Thank You to ckaihatsu For This Useful Post:


  17. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    3,058
    Organisation
    The Socialist Party of Great Britain
    Blog Entries
    4
    Rep Power
    35

    Default

    Why should we follow any particular leader?

  18. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    40
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Anarchists are the guys who break the windows at a protest. Then the cops go beat up the Green Peace guys.

    Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

  19. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,213
    Blog Entries
    7
    Rep Power
    30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jdneel View Post
    All good questions. Good questions that must be explored. I have never seen so much interest in Socialism in my entire life. Polls are showing that young people in the US now have a more positive view of Socialism than Capitalism. Strike while the iron is hot!
    1. Polls can be misleading.

    2. See above, but not just in terms of exact figures. The notion of "socialism" most respondents had likely has little to do with socialism as the revolutionary left knows it. It's more akin to social democracy, or even Keynesian public works projects.

    As for left unity, several important questions were already raised.

    What I would add:

    Legitimate differences make it not really possible, nor desirable, to form some kind of broad anarcho-Stalinist anti-capitalist coalition. However that "internal" conflict of the radical left works out, it's not avoidable. That's different, of course, from any petty procedural disputes over how a Communist Party elects a leader, for example. The latter sort of issue seems avoidable.

    That said, we need to somehow unify politically (meaning also geographically) disjointed struggles. Gone are the days of both storming the Winter Palace and fighting for a Free Territory of Ukraine. Of course, logistically speaking, on-the-ground organization will happen in our own "neighbourhoods", but we cannot win isolated and disjointed struggles for either "socialism in one country" or autonomous regions of anarchists surrounded by capitalist states. Even post-revolution, we'd need a way to know which people and what resources are most needed, and where. If isolated, "spontaneous", haphazardly-planned action was crushed historically, it would be even more easily crushed today.
    Last edited by Brad; 18th February 2017 at 23:27.
    "I'm a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will." - Antonio Gramsci

    "If he did advocate revolutionary change, such advocacy could not, of course, receive constitutional protection, since it would be by definition anti-constitutional."
    - J.A. MacGuigan in Roach v. Canada, 1994

  20. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    40
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    The interest is there. Organize, recruit and educate!

    Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

  21. #18

    Default

    Why should we follow any particular leader?
    "I am vegan because I have compassion for animals; I see them as beings possessed of value not unlike humans. I am an anarchist because I have that same compassion for humans, and because I refuse to settle for compromised perspectives, half-assed strategies and sold-out objectives. As a radical, my approach to animal and human liberation is without compromise: total freedom for all, or else."

    "It takes no more time to be a vegetarian than to eat animal flesh.... When non-vegetarians say ‘human problems come first’ I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for humans that compels them to continue to support the wasteful ruthless, exploitation of farm animals."

  22. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    40
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Perhaps you could manage through a committee but wouldn't the committee members collectively be leaders?

    Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

  23. #20
    The Garbage Disposal Unit's Avatar
    The Garbage Disposal Unit is offline Proliferatin' The Commune Supporter
    Forum Moderator
    Global Moderator
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Halifax, NS
    Posts
    3,386
    Organisation
    Sounds authoritarian . . .
    Rep Power
    70

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jdneel View Post
    Anarchists are the guys who break the windows at a protest. Then the cops go beat up the Green Peace guys.

    Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk
    What are you trying to say here?
    The life we have conferred upon these objects confronts us as something hostile and alien.

    Formerly Virgin Molotov Cocktail (11/10/2004 - 21/08/2013)

Similar Threads

  1. Why can't we be comrades?
    By pharaohbanker in forum Politics
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 7th February 2016, 19:54
  2. money for slavery?
    By Pirate Utopian in forum Discrimination
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 25th October 2006, 14:06
  3. Replies: 80
    Last Post: 20th February 2006, 02:32
  4. The Spanish Civil War and the War Today
    By 1949 in forum History
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 15th June 2005, 06:53
  5. Replies: 22
    Last Post: 29th November 2002, 22:23

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •