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Thread: The women's march is pointless in America, but vital to the Arab & Islamic world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavrilo93 View Post
    Oh my God....

    Oops, I mean.... damn. Sorry I'm a clerical fascist after all. Should I exercise self-criticism comrade schizophrenic? Then you shall execute me, once my mind has been purified in Room 101.
    execute you? no no no ....10 years working in the beetfields in silence should cure you of your reactionary tendencies... then you'll be fine

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    Quote Originally Posted by willowtooth View Post
    execute you? no no no ....10 years working in the beetfields in silence should cure you of your reactionary tendencies... then you'll be fine
    Then I shall head there. I head there, because I feel that we are building a better world. I don't want to obstruct it with the way I think. All hail Comrade Schizophrenic, and his tankie mob on this forum who showed me the dangers of independent thinking!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavrilo93 View Post
    Then I shall head there. I head there, because I feel that we are building a better world. I don't want to obstruct it with the way I think. All hail Comrade Schizophrenic, and his tankie mob on this forum who showed me the dangers of independent thinking!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantMonkeyMan View Post

    I actually disagree with a lot said in the video - namely that there is a marked difference in culture that somehow leads to muslim men being specifically worse than non-muslim men. The majority of rape and sexual assault inflicted upon women is by people they know and that's very rarely some random muslim immigrant. The culture in the west is not a monolith of perfect egalitarian liberalism and, as we have seen recently in the highly publicised rapes committed by college american football players in the US, there are often insidious aspects of Western culture that are very much willing to defend and obfuscate the acts committed by white christian or atheist males and normalising the degradation of women. That there are more reported instances of rape and sexual assault has everything to do with decades of struggle women have gone through to highlight sexism and rape in society and absolutely nothing to do with immigration from countries with a predominantly muslim religious culture - correlation is not causation, after all. You'll notice that the Indian News and Views channel didn't highlight India but highlighted Bangladesh and Pakistan despite there being some very prominent news stories of rapes in India and the failures of the Indian law system in prosecuting the individuals involved. Does that mean that men who are raised in a predominantly hindu culture have bad attitudes towards women? Such an idea is irrational and is such a sweeping generalisation that anyone with two braincells to rub together should dismiss it.

    Ultimately, what it boils down to is that in class society there was historically a division of labour predicated on gender that created the economic base that informed an ideology that put men in a position of privilege over women. Capitalism has brought with it the advancements in technology and education that has changed that division of labour, has started to change the economic power dynamic of gender, and allowed individuals who were previously largely excluded from the public discourse to speak up about the shit that goes on in their lives. Just because this has led to huge improvements in the lives of women in the West is largely irrelevant, shit still ain't perfect and shit still needs to be highlighted and organised against.

    The sort of shitty 'whataboutism' to deflect from the problems of Western culture is just generally an example of a poor argument and poor politics. Yes, the conditions in the Middle East and North Africa are generally pretty shit for women and on some arbitrary scale they are comparatively worse than the conditions for women in the West. But what does that have to do with women in the West having a voice and saying that some aspects of their lives are pretty shit and the current government is perpetuating that nonsense? Frankly, stating that people in the West should support political change for women elsewhere in the world and stop fighting for political change in their own countries is fucking ludicrous. Do you think the people marching in Washington and elsewhere wouldn't want women in Lebanon to have a better existence? They'd celebrate it! But what can a person in Oxnard, California or wherever the fuck realistically do to change the government and culture in Lebanon or Pakistan or wherever?

    Revolutionary socialists in this era need to be engaging with these movements positively and not dismissing them to highlight issues elsewhere and it's certainly an utter travesty that revolutionaries would adopt the phraseology of the right wing and the liberals in suggesting that something as arbitrary as what country you are born in would make you more likely to rape someone. Every source of injustice either at home or in a distant country is yet another sign of the inadequacies of class society to deal with modern technology and ideas, it's yet another sign that the traditions of all the dead generations weigh like mountains on the brains of the living.

    Sure, I'm not trying to make a cottage industry out of bourgeois gender disparities, by country, and I also appreciate that Western involvement abroad could easily become 'cultural imperialism' around feminist issues, but I still think that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is correct to point out that people should be aware of significant quality-of-life / socioeconomic-status differences by country or culture. This isn't to preempt or override underlying *class* differences with such a critique, but merely to take Ali's line as a call for greater feminist *literacy*, so-to-speak. Maybe saying that Middle Eastern women are relatively more oppressed, exploited, and are poorer than their Western counterparts isn't exactly *news*, but there's nothing wrong with hearing those facts on a regular basis, either.

    I took Ali's critique to be one of *anti-mysticism*, or an anti-postmodernist stance, to say that, yes, we *can* discern material distinctions in women's ways of life and social treatment from one area of the globe to another, so that our minds don't simply *gloss over* such differences in our larger treatment of what is humane and what is not.

    While women's oppression happens everywhere we shouldn't simply pool it all together as being roughly the same with just different cultural 'flavors' at play -- to do that would be a shallow and *non-materialist* approach.

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    Default VIDEO - Women's March in Chicago

    VIDEO - Women's March in Chicago

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    Women's March in Chicago

    Among the historic marches throughout the U.S., the Chicago version of the Women’s March on January 21, 2017 (official count 250,000) ushered in a new era of activism. Sarah Chambers (Chicago Teachers Union Executive Board member and Special Education teacher) provides a running commentary interwoven with scenes and interviews. On the surface it was a protest against Trump’s inauguration. But the political content of the event pointed beyond that and beyond mainstream politics. Flexing its new muscles, this inchoate sea of resistance reached beyond just women’s rights only. Length 14:38.

    Video url: https://youtu.be/WHwr4HGMtvs

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    Quote Originally Posted by ckaihatsu View Post
    Sure, I'm not trying to make a cottage industry out of bourgeois gender disparities, by country, and I also appreciate that Western involvement abroad could easily become 'cultural imperialism' around feminist issues, but I still think that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is correct to point out that people should be aware of significant quality-of-life / socioeconomic-status differences by country or culture. This isn't to preempt or override underlying *class* differences with such a critique, but merely to take Ali's line as a call for greater feminist *literacy*, so-to-speak. Maybe saying that Middle Eastern women are relatively more oppressed, exploited, and are poorer than their Western counterparts isn't exactly *news*, but there's nothing wrong with hearing those facts on a regular basis, either.

    I took Ali's critique to be one of *anti-mysticism*, or an anti-postmodernist stance, to say that, yes, we *can* discern material distinctions in women's ways of life and social treatment from one area of the globe to another, so that our minds don't simply *gloss over* such differences in our larger treatment of what is humane and what is not.

    While women's oppression happens everywhere we shouldn't simply pool it all together as being roughly the same with just different cultural 'flavors' at play -- to do that would be a shallow and *non-materialist* approach.
    I generally trust you to have quite a solid understanding of such things, ckaihatsu, and I ultimately agree with your position. I only quoted your post because I thought it pretty obvious that Ibn.AL.Muqafaa was just posting that shit to defend his dismissal of the necessity of feminism in the west and the legitimacy of women being pissed by having a ridiculous orange misogynist as their President and was a bit surprised you'd let it slide. Some of the discussion in this thread has been pretty shit - take the ridiculous and petty argument above for example.
    Modern democracy is nothing but the freedom to preach whatever is to the advantage of the bourgeoisie - Lenin


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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantMonkeyMan View Post

    I generally trust you to have quite a solid understanding of such things, ckaihatsu, and I ultimately agree with your position. I only quoted your post because I thought it pretty obvious that Ibn.AL.Muqafaa was just posting that shit to defend his dismissal of the necessity of feminism in the west and the legitimacy of women being pissed by having a ridiculous orange misogynist as their President and was a bit surprised you'd let it slide. Some of the discussion in this thread has been pretty shit - take the ridiculous and petty argument above for example.

    And I trust *you*, Giant Monkey Man -- ! (heh)

    I think the biggest problem with IAM is his emphasis of a purported 'men's oppression' line -- his detailing of West vs. Middle East for women seems fine, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantMonkeyMan View Post
    I generally trust you to have quite a solid understanding of such things, ckaihatsu, and I ultimately agree with your position. I only quoted your post because I thought it pretty obvious that Ibn.AL.Muqafaa was just posting that shit to defend his dismissal of the necessity of feminism in the west and the legitimacy of women being pissed by having a ridiculous orange misogynist as their President and was a bit surprised you'd let it slide. Some of the discussion in this thread has been pretty shit - take the ridiculous and petty argument above for example.
    that's where your wrong he has no intention of making a serious intellectual point about anything he said. He's a conspiracy theorist he's not really left or right wing, he just currently sees the current establishment as being left wing. The same people accusing george W bush of being in on 9/11 were the same ones claiming Obama was not really born in America. So when you address his concerns or whatever he brings up, your not really helping him, because he's really discussing a huge conspiracy that sounds too crazy for him to confess even to his closest friends. Your seeing the tip of the iceberg, your not doing anything but explaining why the moon landing really happened, or why there are no aliens on mars but your not addressing the fact... that you would have to believe in this insane world of government cover ups and UFO's and CIA brainwashing and jews controlling the banks, in the first place.

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    On the subject of why feminism is not "pointless" in the west.

    First I want to say I am not supporting the source or the idea of state granted "rights" so dont bother; I am posting it simply as an example of how women are NOT treated equally in the west. Feminism isn’t about equality tho; it’s about deconstructing the standards by which you would measure “equality”: capital, power & hierarchy.

    A delegation of human rights experts from Poland, the United Kingdom and Costa Rica spent 10 days this month touring the United States so they can prepare a report on the nation’s overall treatment of women. The three women, who lead a United Nations working group on discrimination against women, visited Alabama, Texas and Oregon to evaluate a wide range of U.S. policies and attitudes, as well as school, health and prison systems.

    The delegates were appalled by the lack of gender equality in America. They found the U.S. to be lagging far behind international human rights standards in a number of areas, including its 23 percent gender pay gap, maternity leave, affordable child care and the treatment of female migrants in detention centers.

    The most telling moment of the trip, the women told reporters on Friday, was when they visited an abortion clinic in Alabama and experienced the hostile political climate around women’s reproductive rights.

    “We were harassed. There were two vigilante men waiting to insult us,” said Frances Raday, the delegate from the U.K. The men repeatedly shouted, “You’re murdering children!” at them as soon as they neared the clinic, even though Raday said they are clearly past childbearing age.

    “It’s a kind of terrorism,” added Eleonora Zielinska, the delegate from Poland. “To us, it was shocking.”

    In most European countries, she explained, abortions are performed at general doctors’ offices and hospitals that offer all kinds of other health services, so there aren’t protesters waiting to heckle the women who enter.

    The women discovered during their visit that women in the United States have “missing rights” compared to the rest of the world. For instance, the U.S. is one of three countries in the world that does not guarantee women paid maternity leave, according to the U.N. International Labour Organization. The U.N. suggests that countries guarantee at least 14 weeks of paid parental leave. Some countries go further — Iceland requires five months paid leave for each parent, and an additional two months to be shared between them.

    “The lack of accommodation in the workplace to women’s pregnancy, birth and post-natal needs is shocking,” Raday said. “Unthinkable in any society, and certainly one of the richest societies in the world.”

    Another main area of concern for the delegation is violence against women — particularly gun violence. Women are 11 times more likely to be killed by a gun in the United States than in other high-income countries, and most of those murders are perpetrated by an intimate partner. While the Obama administration has talked a lot about combatting violence against women, its efforts have been frustrated by Congress’ inability to pass new federal gun restrictions.


    “Some states have introduced gun control laws regarding domestic violence, refusing to give perpetrators of domestic violence the right to possess firearms,” Raday said. “This should be a national policy, not an isolated state policy.”

    While federal law prohibits those convicted of misdemeanor domestic abuse from purchasing a gun, it does not require them to surrender the guns they already own. Further, the law does not include domestic abusers who are not married to or co-habitating with their victims, and it does not include people with temporary restraining orders issued against them for domestic violence.



    The women’s other recommendations for the U.S. include passing campaign finance reform that would allow more women to be elected into office, because the networks that raise money for political candidates are mostly dominated by men. They also suggested raising the minimum wage, which disproportionately affects women, and passing a federal law to stop the slew of new abortion restrictions in the states that are shutting down women’s health clinics across the South.

    “Religious freedom does not justify discrimination against women, nor does it justify depriving women of their rights to the highest standard of health care,” Raday said.

    While the delegates were shocked by many things they saw in the U.S., perhaps the biggest surprise of their trip, they said, was learning that women in the country don’t seem to know what they’re missing.

    “So many people really believe that U.S. women are way better off with respect to rights than any woman in the world,” Raday said. “They would say, ‘Prove it! What do you mean other people have paid maternity leave?’”

    The U.N. experts concluded their trip by meeting with the White House and numerous government agencies, including the Departments of Labor, Health and Human Services, and Justice, to lay out their recommendations. They plan to present the full report to the U.N. Human Rights Council in June 2016.
    It is very very clear that Feminism is needed in the west and more importantly; is absolutely necessary for revolution. There is no revolution without women's liberation everywhere.
    Last edited by (A); 15th February 2017 at 06:49.
    "It is only by the abolition of the state, by the conquest of perfect liberty by the individual, by free agreement, association, and absolute free federation that we can reach Communism - the possession in common of our social inheritance, and the production in common of all riches." ~Peter Kropotkin
    "Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite!" ~Charles Chaplin
    "Communism is Anarchy. You can't regulate or reform your way to communism; it can only be achieved by direct action against state, class and capital."

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    there are too many men on this forum it's becoming repulsive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by comrada View Post

    there are too many men on this forum it's becoming repulsive.


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    Don't you mean 'GiantMonkey-*Woman*' -- ??


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