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Thread: Fuck those who say revolutionaries should be wary about giving to charity

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    Default Fuck those who say revolutionaries should be wary about giving to charity

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    Last edited by graffic; 6th December 2012 at 14:30.

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    Fuck off
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    Why aren't you banned yet....
    Anyway,
    First of all, it's important to remember
    that statistics show the poor give much
    more to charity than the upper class.
    Do you have a source for this? Where are those statistics? For my part, I'm dirt poor and wouldn't dare give to a charity even if I believed they were worth anything.
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    Fuck charities. And fuck your bloody church, too.
    The revolutionary despises public opinion. He despises and hates the existing social morality in all its manifestations. For him, morality is everything which contributes to the triumph of the revolution. Immoral and criminal is everything that stands in its way.

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    I have a lot more in common with working class volunteers for catholic soup kitchens than I do with middle class wannabe pseudo intellectuals who ***** about capitalism on the internet or on campus , instead of actually engaging workers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by graffic View Post
    First of all, it's important to remember that statistics show the poor give much more to charity than the upper class. Let's do away with the myth that charitable giving is a phenomenon of the rich as a way of "dealing with their guilt" because it isn't happening.
    The problem with charity is that it is a band-aid solution, addressing only the symptoms of a deeper problem. The better charities know this.

    Secondly, the cynical excuse that charities are "mugging" you and the money is not going to the right place is both disgusting and disturbing at the same time. This is an often corny, lazy excuse used by rich people to justify being tight.
    Well the fact is that some charities are better than others, but charity in general is not the solution to social problems.

    There is no trouble finding the mainstream, recognized charities where you know that your money will go to a good cause like the "red cross". And anyway if you suspect the money might not be used in the "right way" is it morally justifiable therefore to withhold that money for yourself instead and spend it on a consumer item for yourself?
    If one is working class, yes.

    I think there is also a bad trend among leftists in general to underestimate the potential of charity to not only to improve working class welfare but to change the frugal attitudes of the upper class.
    Do you know what "frugal" actually means?

    The revolution isn't going to bring immediate help to hurricane victims or the homeless.
    Charity does nothing to address the conditions that create homelessness or inadequate responses to natural disasters in the first place.
    The Human Progress Group

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    As a precarious worker myself no matter how much i agree with a particular charity and what it does any spare funds i have are reserved not for charity but for organising and solidarity. Yes, charities can alleviate some problems but it never solves the root cause and it can never solve issues arising from the working class's lack of agency. While giving to charity is better than doing fuck all besides complaining it's better to focus your resources on organising.

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    Graffic, first I think you need to breakdown "charity". Do you mean induviduals being charitable - I don't know many leftists who do not support that, the only criticism is that while that might be a salve for induviduals, it's not a cure for the system. But other than that, if you have money to spare, then why not try and help other people either through direct giving or finding decent organizations.
    Quote Originally Posted by graffic View Post
    First of all, it's important to remember that statistics show the poor give much more to charity than the upper class. Let's do away with the myth that charitable giving is a phenomenon of the rich as a way of "dealing with their guilt" because it isn't happening.
    Yeah and in the US, the rich are taxed much more at death if they don't give a certain percentage of money towards charities - even then regular people give more of a percentage of their wealth relative to what the rich tend to give. But I think this so-called "death-tax" and the philanthropy loop-hole reveal one of the reasons that people should be skeptical of philanthropy and charity organizations.

    So basically the rich use this loophole as a way of privatizing taxes for the rich. Billionaires can directly choose where they want their money to go in society, rather than into a general fund where potentially democratic and popular pressures could force that wealth to go into areas that are not valuable to the rich - or actually hurt their power a little.

    So billionaires, rather than having a percentage of their estate go to pay for public education after they die, they can give a much smaller amount to charities, and since what qualifies as charity has been loosened, this means they can give to charter school organization or any number of pro-business things that ultimately still go back to help them. I gave money to build this art museum... I also happen to own all the land in the surrounding area, so I will get higher property values!

    Secondly, the cynical excuse that charities are "mugging" you and the money is not going to the right place is both disgusting and disturbing at the same time. This is an often corny, lazy excuse used by rich people to justify being tight.
    Well with many charity organization this is a legitimate concern - and all the major North American disasters of recent years have also come with big scandles of the major charity organizations - Hurricane Katrina, the earthquake in Haiti, and now "Sandy":

    NY Times: Anger Grows at Response by Red Cross


    There is no trouble finding the mainstream, recognized charities where you know that your money will go to a good cause like the "red cross". And anyway if you suspect the money might not be used in the "right way" is it morally justifiable therefore to withhold that money for yourself instead and spend it on a consumer item for yourself?
    Do what you have to do in the short-term, but ask yourself is charity going to solve any underlying problems? Is charity going to change how in the US inequality is growing and wages are declining? Is charity going to help people with AIDS in Africa if we allow the Pharma Industry to hold patents on AIDS medicine and prevent those drugs from being produced cheaply enough? Chairty is a band-aid. I have no "moral problem" with charity, and people being kind to eachother is something to higlight, but I do have a "political problem" if people argue that charity is anything other than a band-aid and a temporary salve.
    I think there is also a bad trend among leftists in general to underestimate the potential of charity to not only to improve working class welfare but to change the frugal attitudes of the upper class.
    Capitalists aren't "bad" because they are frugal - in fact they generally aren't and are generally extravagant while most of us HAVE to be frugal. Capitalists can be the nicest people in the world, but to have their position, to be a capitalist means that they need to find the best way to extract more wealth out of workers - to use the best current methods for exploitation.

    Aristocrats and Feudal Church bureaucrats may have personally been kind people - hell some of them are literally Saints - but even a nice church official was doing a job to help maintain a system where the rich took some of everyone's crops and kept the people at the bottom powerless.

    The revolution isn't going to bring immediate help to hurricane victims or the homeless.
    FEMA and the Red Cross apparently aren't either.

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    It doesn't matter if it's a bandaid, charities can and do help the working class, myself at one time included. If we're going to embrace the strategy of allowing the lives of people to get so bad that they have to fight for the right for bread, than lets just say it.
    Last edited by Anarchocommunaltoad; 10th November 2012 at 18:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchocommunaltoad View Post
    It doesn't if it's a bandaid, charities can and do help the working class, myself at one time included. If we're going to embrace the strategy of allowing the lives of people to get so bad that they have to fight for the right for bread, than lets just say it.
    We have charities at the same time that people fight for bread - we couldn't have charities if people wern't fighting over bread. A band-aid is exactly what it is: helping one specific outbreak of a much more systemic disease.

    No one is arguing that charity doesn't help the individual recipient - only that it will not "fix" the underlying problems that create the need for charities in the first place.

    Charity or not, that really doesn't matter ultimately as much as how much workers can organize and fight for things. If worker's can't force bosses to pay a living level wage, if worker's can't influence who gets fired and under what conditions, if worker's can't force reforms to services, then it won't matter how much charity there is because we'll all be fighting over scraps of coal in a Dickensian tenament.

    In the US there is much more charity now than in the 1960s, but there is also MORE POVERTY AND INEQUALITY. So it's not "charity" or misery - it's really charity and misery.

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    I understand that. I just don't see why you can't organize and give 5 dollars to disaster relief at the same time

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    There is nothing about being a communist that voids you from being involved with charity. However, if you think charity is the furthest we can go, then you are not a communist.

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    duh....

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    i dunno i don't think anyone's like 'welp fuck charity' in earnest.
    I'm on some sickle-hammer shit
    Collective Bruce Banner shit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenka View Post
    Do you have a source for this? Where are those statistics? For my part, I'm dirt poor and wouldn't dare give to a charity even if I believed they were worth anything.
    actually

    https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/m...OB-wwln-t.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchocommunaltoad View Post
    I understand that. I just don't see why you can't organize and give 5 dollars to disaster relief at the same time
    No reason whatsover.

    In Oakland when Katrina happened we tried to organize a grassroots donation drive. The Panthers had a lot of charity programs. Occupy Oakland did a hell of a lot of charity work and fed a lot of the homeless people who live in that park and in downtown. In NYC OWS has been able to kind of re-form as "Occupy Sandy".

    However, Occupy Sandy, BPP, or even my little effort are linked to a larger sense of how we can get beyond charity and needing these ad-hoc self-charity efforts to make up for the indifference and neglect of the government and more importantly the inherent inequality and exploitation of the system itself.

    Larger liberal church and NGO organization are an end to themselves, they accept poverty and misary as fact and so become just fund-raising machines with no way out of the problems they are attempting to mitigate. This can be purely good-intentioned (and I'm sure most church and non-profit volunteers and low-ranking employees are doing this purely out of a desire for altruism). But it can also be just a bureaucratic machine where eventually some people will try and scam or they will put the health of the charity organization over sending money to where people thought it would go (as in Haiti and Katrina). Or it can be just a straight-up scam using the influence of money by rich people for other ends (like imperialism, corporate PR, or cover for a company coming in and screwing labor or resources).

    So charity is fine, but self-organization is key to finally eliminating the need for any charity of the sort we are used to seeing.

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    aye...

    Fuck those who use the "people are already giving enough charity" mentality to obscure the need for more powerful change. And while I'm at is, fuck those who say "fuck charity".

    Charity can do good but doesn't take away the bad. That's how I see it anyway. If I have some pocket change you can bet your ass I'll dump it in the Salvation Army bucket, but I don't see it as making a real difference. I'm fine with people using charity to complement activism, but please please lease don't think you can replace one with the other.
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    The Panthers didn't have "charity" programmes - they did solidarity work, which is fundamentally different, and aimed at empowering people (as opposed to feeding cycles of dependence). In this sense, it's totally fine to give $5 to this or that cause if the cause, but organizations should be evaluated critically, and we should probably tell "charities", well . . .
    . . . I will happily come out and say, "fuck charity" - not because I haven't been thankful for many a soup kitchen meal, but because charity plays a particular role vis-a-vis capitalism. I'd draw an analogy to the education system - I'm happy to say fuck school, though I appreciate having been taught how to read.
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    Fuck those who think that giving a dying child a scrap of your big-ass baguette that you're going to scoff is the proper way to go.
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    i think some people are kind of missing the point of what folks who are criticial (not really) of charities here are saying
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