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Thread: illegal immigration

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    I know that communists really dont believe in the concept of illegal immigration and the concept of nationalism but where should the line be crossed. Can too much illegal immigration in to a country harm it in any way? Or are there no repercussions of illegal immigration? In the dominican republic for example there are around 2.5 million haitian immigrants in a very small but overpopulated country. Could this be an example of illegal immigration being harmful? Im confused about this topic, please enlighten me.

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    Would it matter if those Haitian immigrants had immigrated there legally?

    In any case, you miss the key issue here, that being the fact that workers have no country and should be allowed freedom of movement. Also the fact that if workers move to another country, especially if they do so illegally, it's because they are seeking a better life than they would get in their home country, which is usually in dire straits due to imperialism and other shit they have to deal with.
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    There's really only two issues around immigrants that concern me... the first of which is xenophobia and the second is immigrants being used as a cheap source of labour compared to the population at large. None of these are the fault of the migrants who as GPDP points out are merely seeking better conditions. How can we fault them for that? I'd do the same. I think that the key to solving both is for migrants and non-migrants organising together and fighting for better conditions.

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    The American army moving into your country is a sort of illegal immigration leftists often oppose.

    Poor people moving from one place to another? Does that harm 'the country'? Fuck 'the country'. Workers have no country.
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    As far as the US is concerned, the current illegal immigration "crisis" wouldn't even exist if it hadn't been for NAFTA. Globalization and "Free Trade" actually fucked over American and Mexican workers in a multitude of ways. It displaced millions of Mexican farmers, encouraged rapid outsourcing in America, and ultimately put underemployed American workers in a position where they felt threatened by "illegal" immigrants who are only coming to America as a result of the same policies that eroded the American manufacturing base in the first place.
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    the issue is not immigration its exploitative bosses
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blake's Baby View Post
    The American army moving into your country is a sort of illegal immigration leftists often oppose.
    Except that's not immigration by any stretch of the imagination. Military occupation =/= immigration. This is common sense.

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    Most people would never leave their homes, families, friends, etc. unless they were in a situation that was out of their control. My family would have never left Sarajevo had there not been a war. Had the war never happened, I'd probably be in Sarajevo right now doing whatever it is I would be doing. The vast majority of people leave their nations of origin due to circumstances beyond their control.

    We have a saying here in the former Yugoslavia, "Trbuhom za kruhom" or "The stomach follows the bread." I think that explains people's migrations very well. People move because there is a genuine reason to move. As most wouldn't leave their life behind unless they felt it would better their life substantially.
    Last edited by ВАЛТЕР; 11th November 2012 at 09:38. Reason: typo
    Domovina u srcu je govno u glavi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lardlad95 View Post
    As far as the US is concerned, the current illegal immigration "crisis" wouldn't even exist if it hadn't been for NAFTA. Globalization and "Free Trade" actually fucked over American and Mexican workers in a multitude of ways. It displaced millions of Mexican farmers, encouraged rapid outsourcing in America, and ultimately put underemployed American workers in a position where they felt threatened by "illegal" immigrants who are only coming to America as a result of the same policies that eroded the American manufacturing base in the first place.
    Well and not to mention there is no "crisis" to begin with. Declining US manufacturing, changes in the models of employment, and so on all happened independantly of immigration trends. As have employment rates - in fact the only connection the last few recessions in the US had with immigration, is that each recession saw a decline in immigration as jobs dried up. When there was a big influx of immigration to the US in the 1990s, there was also 3% unemployment.

    So employment trends and the power or lack of power on the job by workers has nothing to do with immigrants and everything to do with the balance of class forces. Ironically, the more the bosses can scapegoat immigrants, the more they can repress immigrants by propping up these fears, the more the balance is in the favor of the bosses because it's harder for workers to organize but also by accepting that workers are the cause of employment or lack of employment, means that the bosses are off the hook and workers have already constrained themselves to fighting over what is offered by the bosses.

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    I'd encourage RevLefters to support the drop the I word campaign:

    Drop the I-Word is a public education campaign powered by immigrants and diverse communities across the country that value human dignity and are working to eradicate the dehumanizing slur "illegals" from everyday use and public discourse. The i-word opens the door to racial profiling and violence and prevents truthful, respectful debate on immigration. No human being is "illegal."
    http://colorlines.com/droptheiword/

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    Quote Originally Posted by blake 3:17 View Post
    I'd encourage RevLefters to support the drop the I word campaign:



    http://colorlines.com/droptheiword/
    It's rather common amongst far-leftists already to speak of 'undocumented migrants' instead of 'illegal immigrants,' I'd say.
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    Illegal or legal are, well, legal categories.
    How should illegal immigrants be called?
    Paper-less immigrants?

    Sorry didn't see T. C.'s reply.

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    Yeah "illegal" is propaganda. Most immigrant organizations and the left in the US say "undocumented" - and it's more accurate in legal terms too.

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    why even make the distinction at all?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Cornelis View Post
    It's rather common amongst far-leftists already to speak of 'undocumented migrants' instead of 'illegal immigrants,' I'd say.
    ColorLines has been organizing a the Drop the I Word campaign. It asks to take a personal pledge (easy for some of us), but also puts pressure on media to drop this racist term. There are regular petitions and mass email campaigns. Please support these.

    Thanks and solidarity!

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    Humans are like dogs, cats, in that they have a natural survival-mechanism. From my own personal point of view, the real reason of why people from poor countries migrate to wealthier countries is basically hunger, and/or extreme physical, mental, emotional, political persecution, high levels of crime in their poor original country (caused by plutocratic-governments) and other forms of extreme pain. So they move as a survival mechanism to their own selves and loved ones, wether that migration is legally or illegally. Remember that laws have been created by humans. Laws do not really exist, laws only exist if you get caught, all laws are fake, including borders and immigration laws, and have been created by oligarchic corrupt governments for their plutocratic corporate goals.




    Quote Originally Posted by ponymaruni3 View Post
    I know that communists really dont believe in the concept of illegal immigration and the concept of nationalism but where should the line be crossed. Can too much illegal immigration in to a country harm it in any way? Or are there no repercussions of illegal immigration? In the dominican republic for example there are around 2.5 million haitian immigrants in a very small but overpopulated country. Could this be an example of illegal immigration being harmful? Im confused about this topic, please enlighten me.

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    In the US, the people complaining loudest about "illegals" are people whose own ancestors arrived in North America and settled without the permission of those already living there.
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    Do illegals take jobs away from the natives or is this just bourgeoisie propaganda? please explain

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    I would like to add to this debate about immigration in general. Not just illegal immigration but also legal immigration. That we also have to point out that in many small poor countries, exists a type of plutocratic oligarchical fascist pseudo-feudalist, pseudo-nepotist, pseudo-slavery political-economic systems, and not really normal capitalist systems. In which the monthly income of the majority of people is around 100 dollars to 800 dollars per month (no more than that). Compared with the monthly basic needs which are around 1000 dollars a month in most neoliberal poor nations like Honduras, Panama, Guatemala etc. So that creates a lot of street crimes, delincuency, immorality, lack of solidarity between people, extreme levels of individualism, narcissism. And a very very weak left. In many poor countries like Honduras and Colombia most people are very ultra-right wing catholics, very obsolete, very traditional. There is not an organized left like in USA, and Europe. So, because not even social-democrat welfare parties have chance to win election in many plutocratic dictatorships in small nations. Poor people are necessarily forced to migrate as a survival mechanism. Because they don't have any hope within the capitalist plutocratic system of their own countries. And they don't have any hope of a solution with the socialist parties of their own countries. Which most of the times are corrupt leftist parties, and leftist labor union leaders who most of the time betray the poor people of their own country by allying their socialist party with traditional parties. So that they can get tax exemptions on new cars, new apartments, a monthly check without working, and many other benefits.

    The world out there is not a piece of cake, humans are very evil and corrupt, there are tons and tons of socialist parties of this whole world, that are in politics as a business. Many socialist parties in poor nations are as corrupt and evil as right-wing parties.







    Quote Originally Posted by ponymaruni3 View Post
    Do illegals take jobs away from the natives or is this just bourgeoisie propaganda? please explain

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    Quote Originally Posted by ponymaruni3 View Post
    I know that communists really dont believe in the concept of illegal immigration and the concept of nationalism but where should the line be crossed. Can too much illegal immigration in to a country harm it in any way? Or are there no repercussions of illegal immigration? In the dominican republic for example there are around 2.5 million haitian immigrants in a very small but overpopulated country. Could this be an example of illegal immigration being harmful? Im confused about this topic, please enlighten me.
    I don't give a fuck about "the country". I care about the well being of the working poor.

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