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| Philosophy Philosophise with fellow RevLeft members on varied topics such as existence, the human condition, or philosophy itself.
Forum Led by: Dean |
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#1
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Okay, first off, I don't see dialectics as a science; it can be a religion for some and complete bullshit to others, and that's not what I'm interested in arguing. I think it can be useful as one tool, out of many, to be used for interpreting the past, but nothing more than that.
But some people did believe it - like Karl Marx. And keep in mind that this is a thought experiment, something I just thought of and decided to see how people reacted to it: What if our present society, or something close was the one that Marx envisioned when he was writing the Communist Manifesto? I mean, he was an intelligent guy; he had to have applied his own theories to themselves. I don't think he simply assumed that every single person alive would immediately see the value of his writing and simply "convert" wholesale. He knew there would be resistance. And his own system leaves the possibility that it would not (and could not) simply replace the old structures entirely. What if Karl Marx proposed communism as the antithesis of capitalism, knowing full well that his own system of dialectics implied that the two would eventually synthesize instead of one replacing the other? What if Marx was secretly anticipating a mixed economy all along? |
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#2
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The synthesis is of capitalist productive forces and communist relations of production, not one or two communist enterprises in a capitalist state.
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"We stand with great emotion before the millions who gave their lives for the world communist movement, the invincible revolutionaries of the heroic proletarian history, before the uprisings of working men and women and poor farmers – the mass creators of history. Their example vindicates human existence." - from 'Statement of the Central Committee of the KKE (On the 90th anniversary of the Great October Socialist Revolution in Russia 1917)' |
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#3
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#4
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Kun Fana, you seem to be referring to historical materialism, a theory which does not need any dialectics at all for it to work.
Which is a good job, since, as I have shown, dialectics cannot explain change -- or, alternatively, if dialectics were true, change would be impossible. Proof here: http://z11.invisionfree.com/Kasama_T...?showtopic=460 http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...4&postcount=23 http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...5&postcount=24
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Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ |
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#5
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Capitalism-Thesis, Socialism-Antithesis, Communism-Synthesis.
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#6
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BenHur:
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Except, this is not even Hegel's schema: http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...95&postcount=7 It's Kant and Fichte's!
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Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ |
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#7
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I've just had a look at Rosa's intro essay and it makes a lot of sense to me - from our vantage point why assume we can squeeze the whole of human history into a single schema particularly given the events of the last 100 years which hardly support the idea of the onward march of history. |
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#8
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History is the study of social evolution. And is there a society without individuals? Individuals do have a mind, don't they?
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#9
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BenHur:
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Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ |
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#10
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There is more to it, but you have to read it for yourself. Here is the chapter http://www.marxists.org/reference/ar...ermination.htm
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The spiritual atom bomb which the revolutionary people possess is a far more powerful and useful weapon than the physical atom bomb. - Lin Biao Our code of morals is our revolution. What saves our revolution, what helps our revolution, what protects our revolution is right, is very right and very honourable and very noble and very beautiful, because our revolution means justice - Dr. George Habash, founder of the PFLP. Communist Party of Australia Communist Party of Australia ML |
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#11
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I think she meant something more like, "Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living." (Marx)
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"The sun shines. To hell with everything else." - Stephen Fry “When truth is no longer free, freedom is no longer real: the truths of the police are the truths of today.” - Jacques Prévert |
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#12
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Hiero:
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And, even if we knew why they were, as I have shown, if dialectics were true (and change were the result of these 'internal contradictions') change would in fact be impossible.
__________________
Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ |
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#13
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Bilan:
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Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ |
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#14
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Right.
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"The sun shines. To hell with everything else." - Stephen Fry “When truth is no longer free, freedom is no longer real: the truths of the police are the truths of today.” - Jacques Prévert |
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#15
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'Mixed economy'? Capitalism is capitalism is capitalism.
And the 'Thesis, antithesis, synthesis' thing is bullshit, but that's already been gone over.
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"At the side of, or above, the Unions of special trades there must spring up a general Union, a political organisation of the working class as a whole." -Friedrich Engels "The Capitalist is the right hand, the Labor Fakir is the left hand of the Beast Capital that to-day is “holding up” and plundering the Working Class. That Beast can not be fought if either of his hands is left free." -Daniel De Leon "All power to the Socialist Industrial Union!" (SLP slogan) |
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#16
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Zero -- we have, and many times since I have been at RevLeft, but I can safely predict it will come up again. This is one 'meme' that refuses to die.
__________________
Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ |
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#17
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As for history being made intelligible on the basis of a small number of general hypotheses, even Rosa could not deny this without renouncing her fidelity to historical materialism.
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But also when I am active scientifically, etc. – an activity which I can seldom perform in direct community with others – then my activity is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in which the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and therefore that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the consciousness of myself as a social being. - Karl Marx "There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin |
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#18
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But also when I am active scientifically, etc. – an activity which I can seldom perform in direct community with others – then my activity is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in which the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and therefore that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the consciousness of myself as a social being. - Karl Marx "There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin |
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#19
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BTB:
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__________________
Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ |
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#20
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BTB:
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In fact, I have gone further, and have shown that change would be impossible if dialetics were true. Anyway, external factors also affect social change. Unless you think that we can get along without the Sun, say.
__________________
Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ |
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