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#41
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Talking about the forces and relations of production, the interaction between the natural world and human society, between technology and human society, etc. doesn’t invoke any queer metaphysical laws such as those mentioned above. We can talk about the interaction of these things (people, technology, nature, the economy, etc.) without any recourse to the unity of opposites, etc. |
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#42
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CZ:
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Dialectical gobbledygook rarely appears even there. When it does, I send them a letter complaining, which they never publish. [They sometimes publish my letters the SW, though.] http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art...ticle_id=10917 http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/SW_Letter_001.htm But, since Socialist Worker is aimed at speaking to the class, no wonder it uses the language of the class, and refrains from using Hegel-speak. Quote:
That jargon cannot explain change, as I have have shown. And I do not know why you mentioned Wittgenstein in this context. Quote:
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Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ Last edited by Rosa Lichtenstein; 26th May 2008 at 01:41. |
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#43
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Rosa and CZ, I vividly remember my old dialectics thread on corporate synergy. Then I realized that the notion of "quantity into quality" was nonsense except in the "realm" of ideas:
The physical quantities still exist. For example, the capital assets of the to-be-parent and of the to-be-subsidiary will still remain immediately after the acquisition is ratified by the respective companies' shareholders. It is the combined management style - already a qualitative factor - that improves, which then creates synergy, as measured by an improved share price. However, this "quality" is measurable, so it's more of a quantity. On the other hand, maybe I'm just babbling on here: quantity (consolidation) -> quality (combined management) -> quantity (improved share price). BTW, CZ, in regards to "living relations," why don't you just employ the simpler word "dynamics"?
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REVOLUTIONARY MARXISM: (1) SURMOUNTS REDUCTIONISM, revisionism, and sectarianism; (2) Has, as its minimum goal, the revolutionary MERGER OF MARXISM AND THE WORKER-CLASS MOVEMENT; and (3) Has, as its revolutionary goal, the social-abolitionist rule of the working class - SOCIAL PROLETOCRACY! "You have to be a KAUTSKYAN on the question of organizing in "Educate, Agitate, Organize!" as opposed to "Agitate, Agitate, Agitate!" to get to the point of having a mass workers' party which can possibly pose the question of power." (Mike Macnair) |
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#44
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Look, JR, this useless 'law' only works because practically every single one of its significant terms has been left hoplessly vague and obscure.
No one seems to know what 'quality' means (or rather, as soon as anyone tries to define it, several classic examples that Engels and other fans of the dialectic refer to no longer work), or how long a 'node' (or 'leap') is supposed to last. Furthermore, the thermodynamic dimensions of the system to which 'matter or energy' is supposd to be added have been left vague, too. Moreover, no one seems to know what 'added' means here (does it mean expended' or 'incorporated'?). Consider an example: you push a crate along a rough floor. Energy has been 'added' (expended) in/to the system (but, what system though?), but you can do this all day long, and nothing new will emerge. Blow the crate up (energy 'added' -- but to what?), and you get change. The thermodynamic boundaries are also vague, as I said (so much so that we have no idea to what the energy or matter has been 'added'). Here is how I have made this point clear in Essay Seven: Quote:
[Even if we were able to answer the many other objections to this 'law' that I have raised in the aformetnioned Essay.] http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page%2007.htm It is high time we forgot Engels (or Hegel) ever mentioned it.
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Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ Last edited by Rosa Lichtenstein; 27th May 2008 at 05:56. |
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#45
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) I don't try and apply dialectics to it. That would be ridiculous. Likewise, I don't know if Marx was interested in applying the quantitative-qualitative relation to the merger of particular companies (although that's not to say that the movement towards merger and monopoly is not part of the internal dialectic of capitalism). But just because it can't be applied to everything doesn't mean that it only takes place in the "realm of ideas". In fact, that seems even more mysterious. How can an increase in the quantity of ideas result in their qualitative transformation?Quote:
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But also when I am active scientifically, etc. – an activity which I can seldom perform in direct community with others – then my activity is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in which the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and therefore that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the consciousness of myself as a social being. - Karl Marx "There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin |
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#46
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CZ:
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But, according to Lenin, this theory explains everything, and all change, in the entire universe, for all of time -- including a glass tubler! Quote:
--------, (1921), 'Once Again On The Trade Unions, The Current Situation And The Mistakes Of Comrades Trotsky And Bukharin', reprinted in Lenin (1980), pp.70-106. --------, (1961), Philosophical Notebooks, Collected Works, Volume 38 (Progress Publishers). --------, (1970), Karl Marx (Foreign Languages Press). --------, (1980), On The Question Of Dialectics (Progress Publishers). Notice, Lenin includes "every phenomenon" and the entire world, for all of time. indeed, for Lenin, every proposition contains the "nucleus" of dialectics! So the proposition "CZ changed his shirt" attests to the dialectical nature of reality, according to Lenin (and other dialecticians I could quote). So, much as you would like to remove these ridiculous consequences from the loopy 'theory' that dialecticians unwisely borrowed from Hegel, and 'sanitise' it -- a bit like Christians who try to 'sanitise' the Bible -- it won't wash. Finally: Quote:
Quote:
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Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ Last edited by Rosa Lichtenstein; 27th May 2008 at 10:45. |
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#47
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No, the point is that "thesis-antithesis-synthesis" is not a special idea in the history of philosophy or exploratory science. We are simply for rational studies in any field, at least I am.
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"Nationalism is an infantile sickness." - A. Einstein Oh, I am come to the low countrie, Och on, och on, och rie! Without a penny in my purse, To buy a meal to me. |
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#48
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I've read some very simple translations, and some that made my head spin. The quote in this topic is a very good example: http://www.revleft.com/vb/importance...645/index.html I took one from a book which used a personal translation (~1970, before the work had been translated elsewhere), and the other was from Marxists.org. I would pick the former anyday, unfortunately I only have portions, not a full piece.
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"Nationalism is an infantile sickness." - A. Einstein Oh, I am come to the low countrie, Och on, och on, och rie! Without a penny in my purse, To buy a meal to me. |
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#49
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Fine. So tell me what rational method you recommend for understanding how society works. Positivism? Interpretivism? Structuration theory?
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But also when I am active scientifically, etc. – an activity which I can seldom perform in direct community with others – then my activity is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in which the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and therefore that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the consciousness of myself as a social being. - Karl Marx "There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin |
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#50
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Quote:
Quote:
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But also when I am active scientifically, etc. – an activity which I can seldom perform in direct community with others – then my activity is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in which the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and therefore that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the consciousness of myself as a social being. - Karl Marx "There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin |
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#51
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Ah, I see, CZ: the old ignore stuff you do not like/cannot answer ploy.
Nice mystical trick that one...
__________________
Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ Last edited by Rosa Lichtenstein; 27th May 2008 at 20:15. |
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#52
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Sorry, Rosa, which stuff is that?
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But also when I am active scientifically, etc. – an activity which I can seldom perform in direct community with others – then my activity is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in which the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and therefore that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the consciousness of myself as a social being. - Karl Marx "There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin |
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#53
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Humanistic sociology.
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"Nationalism is an infantile sickness." - A. Einstein Oh, I am come to the low countrie, Och on, och on, och rie! Without a penny in my purse, To buy a meal to me. |
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#54
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Can be please be so kind as tell from what philosophy you criticize Marxist dialects? Can you state your philosophical premises? I ask because it's frankly hard for me to imagine where else but from Marx championing the idea of classless communist society comes from.
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#55
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__________________
But also when I am active scientifically, etc. – an activity which I can seldom perform in direct community with others – then my activity is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in which the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and therefore that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the consciousness of myself as a social being. - Karl Marx "There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin |
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#56
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Trivas:
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And I do not disagree with historical materialism (indeed, I accept as a scientific account of history and how to change it).
__________________
Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ |
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#57
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CZ:
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__________________
Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ |
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#58
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Probably.. but until that happy day, please help me out.
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But also when I am active scientifically, etc. – an activity which I can seldom perform in direct community with others – then my activity is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in which the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and therefore that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the consciousness of myself as a social being. - Karl Marx "There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin |
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#59
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In whose humanist sociology is there mention of the class struggle and the ushering in of a communist society?
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Our theories are perfectly sound. The failure is one of action. -- Kwisatz Haderach |
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#60
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CZ:
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__________________
Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman. Enroll on the dialectics detox program here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm Basic Introductory Essay here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/ |
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