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  #41  
Old 9th December 2008, 01:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob The Builder View Post
[...]and an ardent supporter of the British tradition of elitist and technocratic Fabianism?
Have just browse through some basic info about The Fabian
Society - hopefully I will have something worth reading to write
in a little while...
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  #42  
Old 9th December 2008, 01:48
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BTB:

Quote:
Nice attempt at changing the subject which is: Does Russell's and Neurath's logical positivism necessarily lead to their reformism.
1) It's a tatic you use all the time.

2) It was aimed at controverting your general point, that we can infer the politics of someone who is a logical positivist. You only tell a fraction of the story.

Quote:
The question isn't whether logical positivism is the only road to reformism. Again, nice try at deflecting the question. Except it wasn't.
And neither is it the question whether dialectics is the only mystical theory and the only road to counter-revolutionary/substitutionist thinking -- but it is the major one for most Dialectical Marxists.

Quote:
Of course they do - they have to. Capitalists also claim that labour power is not the primary source of value. It must be true, therefore
Well, you are going to have to produce a bit more evidence to show that there is such a connection than this analogy drawn against the capitalists.

Quote:
Erm, when you wrote this:
Apologies, I misunderstood you.

Quote:
You're right the distortion of dialectics in the hands of these opportunists is a problem, but not confined to dialectics. The Stalinists and Maoists have managed to defame many aspects of Marxism.
Ah, but they say the same of us Trots. In fact there is no way to tell of the many thousands (!!) of versions of dialectics there are out there which is or which isn't a 'distortion'!

And, I'd like to see you try this argument over in the Dialectical Materialist Cabal -- try it and see what the Maoists, Stalinists and Hoxha-fans say!

Quote:
Henri Lefebvre provides a brief demolition of the Stalinist systematisation of dialectics in his forward to the fifth edition of his Dialectical Materialism.
An apallingly bad book -- full of logical blunders. How we can trust a single thing this confused 'theorist', I hesitate to ask.

But, as I said, refer the non-Trotskyist dialecticians over in your cabal to this book, and let's see the non-dialectical fur fly.

We need a laugh.

Quote:
Then name one revolutionary Marxist current which has been anti-dialectical.
I can't, but then that is part of the reason why every single one is such a failure.

Prove me wrong:

Name me one successful dialectical marxist current. [Recall, 1917 has been reversed...]

--------------------

Added on edit:

I have just checked that book, and one could use it to attack the current postion of SWP-dialecticians, in that they too advocate this 'theory' as a theory of nature.

Glass houses and all that...
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Basic Introductory Essay: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm

Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Rosa Lichtenstein; 9th December 2008 at 01:59.
  #43  
Old 9th December 2008, 01:57
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I hate to detract from all the philosophical mudslinging, but the chapters on "Socialism" - especially the one on distribution - are an absolute must-read (as my signature implies)! Grunt, the two Cliffites who have responded to your posts so far are monetary socialists, with their version of "socialism" being accommodative of the money-commodities-money process (a.k.a. CAPITAL).
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"You have to be a KAUTSKYAN on the question of organizing in "Educate, Agitate, Organize!" as opposed to "Agitate, Agitate, Agitate!" to get to the point of having a mass workers' party which can possibly pose the question of power." (Mike Macnair)
  #44  
Old 9th December 2008, 02:01
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JR -- what are you on about?

I am not a 'Cliffite'! Are you trying to fall out with me?

And all that stuff about money -- well, words fail me...
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Enroll on the Dialectics Detox Program: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

Basic Introductory Essay: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm

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  #45  
Old 9th December 2008, 02:18
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What on Earth is a Cliffite?

What in Heaven's name is a monetary socialist and what the Hell has it got to do with the argument in this thread?
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  #46  
Old 9th December 2008, 02:21
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Perhaps he means this:

http://www.cliffite.blogspot.com/
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  #47  
Old 9th December 2008, 02:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein View Post
JR -- what are you on about?

I am not a 'Cliffite'! Are you trying to fall out with me?

And all that stuff about money -- well, words fail me...
Aren't you a subscriber to Cliff's "state capitalism" stuff? Also, I'm sure that the SWP is a Cliffite party.
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REVOLUTIONARY MARXISM:

(1) SURMOUNTS REDUCTIONISM, revisionism, and sectarianism; (2) Has, as its minimum goal, the revolutionary MERGER OF MARXISM AND THE WORKER-CLASS MOVEMENT; and (3) Has, as its revolutionary goal, the social-abolitionist rule of the working class - SOCIAL PROLETOCRACY!

"You have to be a KAUTSKYAN on the question of organizing in "Educate, Agitate, Organize!" as opposed to "Agitate, Agitate, Agitate!" to get to the point of having a mass workers' party which can possibly pose the question of power." (Mike Macnair)
  #48  
Old 9th December 2008, 15:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Richter View Post
I hate to detract from all the philosophical mudslinging, but the chapters on "Socialism" - especially the one on distribution - are an absolute must-read (as my signature implies)! Grunt, the two Cliffites who have responded to your posts so far are monetary socialists, with their version of "socialism" being accommodative of the money-commodities-money process (a.k.a. CAPITAL).
Thanks for that JR! Of course I know nothing (yet) about Cliff
and Cliffites - will look it up tonight.

A big thank you, JR - that you are treating me like a comrade
among comrades and not (like some) like an ignorant idiot!

I may not be the smartest - but I am active in the party
I am a member in: Kocking doors and trying to sell our
weekly paper every thursday night. Selling the paper
and engaging people in discussions downtown on the
street every saturday, plus of course party-meetings,
demonstartions and stuff.
I know: It's grassroot stuff - but it's important too.
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  #49  
Old 9th December 2008, 17:33
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JR:

Quote:
Aren't you a subscriber to Cliff's "state capitalism" stuff? Also, I'm sure that the SWP is a Cliffite party.
The vast majority of SWP-ers would regard the term 'Cliffite' as an insult both to them and to him.

---------------------------

Grunt, perhaps the best place to read up on the SWP-UK tradition is here:

http://www.marxists.de/admin/contents.htm
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Hegelism is like a mental disease -- you cannot know what it is until you get it, and then you can't know because you have got it -- Max Eastman.

Enroll on the Dialectics Detox Program: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

Basic Introductory Essay: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm

Also check out: http://www.leninology.blogspot.com/
  #50  
Old 11th December 2008, 21:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein View Post
Grunt, perhaps the best place to read up on the SWP-UK tradition is here:

http://www.marxists.de/admin/contents.htm
Thanks Rosa!
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