Do people here know this French singer of Italian-Spanish origin?

+ YouTube Video

+ YouTube Video

Is she supposed to be a socialist or something? I don't understand why she would dedicate a song to a mass murderer.

Who? El Che? LOL!!!

Why was he a "mass murderer"?

Che Guevara? Your asking me why Che Guevara was a mass murderer?

I think he is. If you're going to assert a position the burden is on you to defend it.

I'm in no doubt that the deeds of Batista and his goons who Che helped overthrow were much worse, but strangely 'ex-anarchists' like yourself have a selective recollection of history.

Ok, I was unaware that this was controversial? You don't think that Che murdered people? Well that partly explains all the wannabe hardcore rebel kids who like to wear Che shirts.

The exact number of Che’s Cuban victims has not been verified, but include people he personally executed and those put to death under his orders. Che’s biographers consistently report that he sent thousands to the firing squad. Over 4,000 deaths are documented to have taken place in Cuba, mostly firing squad execution, in the first three years after Fidel Castro’s takeover (1959-1962). Che Guevara was one of the regime’s chief executioners during this period and is said to have acknowledged ordering "several thousand" executions. All took place without affording the victims fair trials and due process of law. The following list is not exhaustive and only includes cases for which historic reference is known. Names are cited as reported; dates and additional details for most are available. Combat deaths caused by Che in Cuba
and killings in countries where he led guerrilla operations have not been tallied.


14 executed by Che in the Sierra Maestra during the anti-Batista guerrilla struggle (1957-1958):
1. ARISTIDIO 2. MANUEL CAPITÁN 3. JUAN CHANG 4. “BISCO” ECHEVARRÍA 5. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #1
6. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #2 7. EUTIMIO GUERRA 8. DIONISIO LEBRIGIO 9. JUAN LEBRIGIO 10. “EL NEGRO” NÁPOLES
11. “CHICHO” OSORIO 12. ONE UNIDENTIFIED TEACHER (“EL MAESTRO) 13.-14. 2 UNIDENTIFIED PEASANTS
10 executed in Santa Clara at Che’s orders in only two days (January 1959):
1. RAMÓN ALBA 2. JOSÉ BARROSO 3. JOAQUÍN CASILLAS 4. FÉLIX CRUZ 5. ALEJANDRO GARCÍA OLAYÓN
6. HÉCTOR MIRABAL 7. J. MIRABAL 8. FÉLIX MONTANO 9. CORNELIO ROJAS 10. VILALLA
156 executed at La Cabaña Fortress prison at Che Guevara’s orders:
1. VILAU ABREU 2. HUMBERTO AGUIAR 3. GERMÁN AGUIRRE 4. PELAYO ALAYÓN 5. JOSÉ LUIS ALFARO
6. PEDRO ALFARO 7. MARIANO ALONSO 8. JOSÉ ALVARO 9. ANIELLA 10. MARIO ARES POLO
11. JOSÉ RAMÓN BACALLAO 12. CEVERINO BARRIOS 13. EUGENIO BÉCQUER 14. FRANCISCO BÉCQUER
15. RAMÓN BISCET 16. ROBERTO CALZADILLA 17. EUFEMIO CANO 18. JUAN CAPOTE FIALLO
19. ANTONIO CARRALERO 20. GERTRUDIS CASTELLANOS 21. JOSÉ CASTAÑO QUEVEDO 22. RAÚL CASTAÑO
23. EUFEMIO CHALA 24. JOSÉ CHAMACE 25. JOSÉ CHAMIZO 26. RAÚL CLAUSELL 27. ÁNGEL CLAUSELL
28. DEMETRIO CLAUSELL 29. JOSÉ CLAUSELL 30. ELOY CONTRERAS 31. ALBERTO CORBO 32. EMILIO CRUZ
33. JUAN FELIPE CRUZ 34. ORESTES CRUZ 35. HUMBERTO CUEVAS 36. CUNY 37. ANTONIO DE BECHE
38. MATEO DELGADO 39. ARMANDO DELGADO 40. RAMÓN DESPAIGNE 41. JOSÉ DÍAZ CABEZAS
42. ANTONIO DUARTE 43. RAMÓN FERNÁNDEZ OJEDA 44. RUDY FERNÁNDEZ 45. FERRÁN ALFONSO
46. SALVADOR FERRERO 47. VICTOR FIGUEREDO 48. EDUARDO FORTE 49. UGARDE GALÁN
50. RAFAEL GARCÍA MUÑIZ 51. ADALBERTO GARCÍA 52. ALBERTO GARCÍA 53. JACINTO GARCÍA
54. EVELIO GASPAR 55. ARMADA GIL Y DIEZ CABEZAS 56. JOSÉ GONZÁLEZ MALAGÓN 57. EVARISTO GONZÁLEZ
58. EZEQUIEL GONZÁLEZ 59. SECUNDINO GONZÁLEZ 60. RICARDO GRAO 61. BONIFACIO GRASSO
62. RICARDO JOSÉ GRAU 63. OSCAR GUERRA 64. JULIÁN HERNÁNDEZ 65. FRANCISCO HERNÁNDEZ LEYVA
66. ANTONIO HERNÁNDEZ 67. GERARDO HERNÁNDEZ 68. OLEGARIO HERNÁNDEZ 69. SECUNDINO HERNÁNDEZ
70. JESÚS INSUA 71. ENRIQUE IZQUIERDO 72. OSMÍN JORRÍN 73. SILVINO JUNCO 74. ENRIQUE LA ROSA
75. IGNACIO LASAPARLA 76. JESÚS LAZO 77. ARIEL LIMA LAGO 78. RAÚL LÓPEZ VIDAL 79. ARMANDO MAS
80. ENERLIO MATA 81. ELPIDIO MEDEROS 82. JOSÉ MEDINAS 83. JOSÉ MESA 84. FIDEL MESQUÍA
85. JUAN MILIÁN 86. FRANCISCO MIRABAL 87. LUIS MIRABAL 88. ERNESTO MORALES 89. PEDRO MOREJÓN
90. DR. CARLOS MUIÑO, MD. 91. CÉSAR NECOLARDES ROJAS 92. VICTOR NECOLARDES ROJAS 93. JOSÉ NUÑEZ
94. VITERBO O'RREILLY 95. FÉLIX OVIEDO 96. MANUEL PANEQUE 97. PEDRO PEDROSO 98. RAFAEL PEDROSO
99. DIEGO PÉREZ CUESTA 100. JUAN PÉREZ 101. DIEGO PÉREZ CRELA 102. JOSÉ POZO 103. EMILIO PUEBLA
104. ALFREDO PUPO 105. SECUNDINO RAMÍREZ 106. RAMÓN RAMOS 107. PABLO RAVELO 108. RUBÉN REY
109. MARIO RISQUELME 110. FERNANDO RIVERA 111. PABLO RIVERA 112. MANUEL RODRÍGUEZ
113. MARCOS RODRÍGUEZ 114. NEMESIO RODRÍGUEZ 115. PABLO RODRÍGUEZ 116. RICARDO RODRÍGUEZ
117. JOSÉ SALDARA 118. PEDRO SANTANA 119. SERGIO SIERRA 120. JUAN SILVA 121. FAUSTO SILVA
122. ELPIDIO SOLER 123. JESÚS SOSA BLANCO 124. RENATO SOSA 125. SERGIO SOSA 126. PEDRO SOTO
127. OSCAR SUÁREZ 128. RAFAEL TARRAGO 129. TEODORO TELLEZ CISNEROS 130. FRANCISCO TELLEZ
131. JOSÉ TIN 132. FRANCISCO TRAVIESO 133. LEONARDO TRUJILLO 134. TRUJILLO 135. LUPE VALDÉS BARBOSA
136. MARCELINO VALDÉS 137. ANTONIO VALENTÍN 138. MANUEL VÁZQUEZ 139. SERGIO VÁZQUEZ 140. VERDECIA
141. DÁMASO ZAYAS
*15 additional executions were reported by The New York Times (on 2/6/59, 2/8/59, 3/16/59, and 4/2/59), but names are unknown.

Is there a list of Fulgencio Batista's victims anywhere on US based Free Cuba websites etc...

I don't have any statistics, but I am sure that Batista was a murderer as well. But people don't have pictures of him on their shirts. I also highly doubt this Nathalie imbecile knows that her song is honoring a criminal who murdered a 14 year old boy.

A 14 year old boy accused of being an informant and quite capable of pulling a trigger... rough stuff, wars are not nice. I do not condone this, if it's true but then that's what wars do to people...

But most of the people on the victim lists were Batista's men or in his employ, other probably connected to the CIA.

The fact is though, that El Che is venerated throughout South America, in Argentine some peasants have even unofficially canonised "Santo Che" and that when his remains were returned to Cuba for a funeral older people broke down in tears....

Now while the death penalty is to be sure a despicable thing and Che Guevara was definitely wrong to take part in these executions, the fact is that such things are not normally considered the same as mass murder and moreover many figures admired by the mainstream did the same or worse.

The thing that strikes me when Libertarians attack Guevara (and it is usually them) is that they are going for a figure that isn't generally regarded as a monster. After all mainstream capitalist society has never sought to be too critical of him, rather capitalists stick his face on T-Shirts and flog them off to people daft enough to think it is a good means of rebelling and so forth. They don't do that with other Revolutionary figures after all.

Which indicates to me that the Libertarians attacking him are being a little disingenuous and are doing it for the fun of being iconoclasts.

You never know George Washigton could of mass murderer a bunch of people, actually he did, the Native Americans when he was in the British Army.

Well when you don't have fair trials, I don't care what people are "accused" of. When there are no fair trials, claiming that Ches victims were connected to the CIA just doesn't cut it. In America and Europe at least, most of the members of the Che cult are generally uninformed, and they aren't even that up to par with Socialist/Communist political or economic theory. My guess is they are just attracted to the romanticism of it all.

Yes, Che was wrong for murdering children, I hope we can all agree on that. What bothers people like me about Che is why an animal like him has his own cult followers who are just completely uninformed. This isn't really true for Marx or other Socialist figures. There is something about Che that makes wannabe hardcore rebels flock to him. This is horribly annoying. Hopefully by exposing Che for who he really was, the upper/middle class wannabe rebels will stop worshiping him.

Like George Washington, Che had to commit some killing to overthrow a society (big surprise).

Unlike George Washington he wasn't fighting for the rights of slavery and tyrannical capitalism.

Its all very emotive sure, but it doesnt prove that Che was morally worse than those he wanted out of power.

The USA thought nothing of carpet bombing thousands of Cambodian children, 14 years and below.

My point in my previous post was that people flock to Che precisely because he is seen as the "safe" option. The mainstream regards him as perfectly acceptable and a capitalist industry has built up around his image. Regardless of whatever the man might have been the fact is that mainstream capitalism sees little controversy with him and sees adherence to him as being no more dangerous a form of rebellion than listening to alternative rock.

You could make the same argument for Miseans by the way. Most Miseans seem to be uninformed about anything but Misean economics. They therefore are all about want power for themselves in a capitalist system, which most of them will not be able to get since they are apparently bad capitalists - promoting theories most people disagree with anyway.

It's easy to generalize. I've been to MIT once and saw the dorms and one dorm room had a flag of Che on the wall. Are you telling me they didn't know anything about politics? I doubt it.

Alright, that makes sense. I agree that the mainstream does regard him as perfectly acceptable, but it then goes on to completely demonize a far more intelligent person like Marx. I am sure that the members of the Che cult aren't dangerous, it is just that they are for the most part uninformed about socialist or communist theory, and they adopt an ideology without giving it any serious thought. It is like they are desperate for others to see them as hip revolutionaries and rebels.

Well for starters Mises wasn't a murderer. There are some Miseans who only know Austrian economics, which is a pity. But there are many others who are well versed in many other economic doctrines who still see the value in AE.

Well you kind of just made a generalization right there yourself. I don't think you have to be super smart to know much about politics. I have met some very intelligent people who knew very little about any other political theory besides democracy. Also, if the person was well versed in socialist theory, he should have picked a picture of someone like Marx or Lange to put on his wall. Not Che.

Hmmm, by your logic pretty much anyone who has seen action in times of war or revolution, on either side, is/was a "mass-murderer".

First off, I think most would dispute that claim. Second, even if we accept that claim to be true, it so dilutes the meaning of "mass-murderer" that it becomes an empty term, at least in terms of moral culpability because it includes, for example, people who fought against the Nazis.

So yeah... bullshit.

lol. Well it's a matter of perspective. Mises ideas led to the deaths of over 30 million people. You could argue that if Mises didn't come along with his crazy ideas there wouldn't be the general trend of extremist economics. Mises also supported fascism, which killed 40+ million people.

Have you ever heard the statement: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem?

Che, on the other hand, generally did want a better society. His criticisms of capitalism, such as his belief that, within capitalism, there are forces that we cannot see that oppress us and destroy us is actually more classical-liberal/libertarian/anarchist/leftist than it is Marxist. Many of his other writings followed this same line of reasoning, and he is respected for this.

Also, Cuba has done better in things leftists care about, such as access to education and health care, and equality, than free-market dictatorships have.

If anything, he killed more people than listed. I am not going to argue over how many people you need to kill before your considered a mass murderer. For me, if you kill 180 people, your a mass murderer. The fact is that the deaths listed could have been avoided easily. At least have fair trials.

Um, the ideas of Mises didn't kill 30 million people, nor was Mises a fascist.

There is however documented evidence for people who Che is directly responsible for murdering.

While I am sure that killing children really helped Che achieve a better society, the fact is that I will not accept any excuse for his crimes. He killed people without fair trials.