robbo203

Hi RR Yes the website has been inactive for a while but is due to be overhauled. Best bet is to contact Arminiush via the main forum http://groups.yahoo.com/group/worldincommon/ or the internal forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/commoner/ There is also the "spaces of hope" blog cheers R

How can i join World in Common? It's website seems to be inactive

Oh yeah and this is a load of nonsense too - "Marx did not believe that a state would not exist in lower-phase, he believed that a bourgeois state would not exist. In lower-stage communism/socialism, the state loses it's political functions and becomes an economic coordination mechanism". A state that loses its political function as instrument of class rule is no longer a state and in communism there are no classes and therefore there can be no state in Marxian terms. Where do you get these nonsensical ideas of yours from BTW?

Huh? What are you on about? The very sentence you say Lenin did not say is included within the longer sentence from Lenin that you quote!!!! It is very clear what lenin is saying . He is making a distinction between state capitalism run in the interests of the capitalist class and state capitalism run (allegedly) in the interests of the whole people and is calling the latter socialism. The beginning and the end of the longer quote make absolutely no difference to the substantive meaning of the quote in question

Regarding the convention of calling socialism the lower phase of communism perhaps you might care to cite hard evidence to back up your claim that this orginated in the Second International and prior to Lenin saying it. Where did you get this information from?

And that's a lie. Lenin did not say "socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people", no, he said: "For socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly."

You're taking the quote completely out of context and are omitting it's beginning and end. If put together, it's quite clear that he says, socialism is the next step from state-monopoly capitalism, and has ceased to be capitalist monopoly.

I do not miss, you do.

Lenin did not invent that convention, he was following the Second International Marxism convention where lower-phase/first-stage communism was called "socialism" and pure communism/higher-stage communism was called just "communism". The usual criticism was Lenin receives for this is that he 1) did not realize that Marx did not follow this convention and 2) Lenin invented it, and both points are proven wrong if you read the State and Revolution.

Of course the scientific distinction between socialism and communism is clear, Marx did not believe otherwise(the fact that Lenin sometimes used different words for Marx's concepts is completely irrelevant, they're still talking about the same things). Marx did not believe that a state would not exist in lower-phase, he believed that a bourgeois state would not exist. In lower-stage communism/socialism, the state loses it's political functions and becomes an economic coordination mechanism.

On the other point you make about state capitalist monopoly you are misreading Lenin. He is trying to distinguish one form of state- capitalist monopoly from another and clearly says "socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people" meaning as opposed to a state capitalist monopoly serving the interests of the capitalists only. THAT is the point you miss . But it is still a state capitalist monopoly that he calls "socialism" and you can hardly deny what appears in black and white in front of your very eyes!

No you are dead wrong on both counts. Lenin did NOT simply comment on the fact, as he saw it, that people regarded socialism as the lower the phase of communism. It was actually lenin himself who introduced this innovation and palmed it off as a convention. Not only that, far this being a mere observation, he approved of this distinction in saying "But the scientific distinction between socialism and communism is clear." Lenin's confusion ran ever deeper since he contended that in this lower phase of communusm which he dubbed socialism"all citizens (woud be) transformed into hired employees of the state" . That a state would still exist in communism albeit the lower phase, contradicts everything Marx said about communism and also implies the continuation of wage labour as opposed to labour vouchers

So in no way is Lenin implying that state-monopoly capitalism run the interests of the whole people is socialism. He says "for socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly." So he's clearly saying that socialism comes after state-capitalist monopoly, so how can it be inferred that he's saying that socialism is state-monopoly capitalism run in the interests of the whole people? "...ceased to be capitalist monopoly". If state-capitalist monopoly ceased to be capitalist, it's obviously not state-capitalist monopoly anymore.

What Lenin means is crystal clear. He means: State-monopoly capitalism is the last stage of capitalism, it's the most advanced form of capitalism so far, it's the last form of capitalism before socialism, the only place to go from here is socialism. Advancing FROM monopolies is advancing TOWARDS socialism. "state-monopoly capitalism is a complete material preparation for socialism, the threshold of socialism".