RevLeft
Go Back   RevLeft > Members List
Register FAQ Members List RevLeft Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

RevLeft Shortage Alert
RevLeft shortage alert! Current monthly donations are $22.50 below the monthly needed amount of $140. Help Revleft keep running - please subscribe for a monthly donation now!


robbo203 is an awesome prorobbo203 is an awesome prorobbo203 is an awesome prorobbo203 is an awesome prorobbo203 is an awesome prorobbo203 is an awesome prorobbo203 is an awesome prorobbo203 is an awesome prorobbo203 is an awesome prorobbo203 is an awesome prorobbo203 is an awesome pro
Committed User

robbo203 robbo203 is offline

Senior Revolutionary

Visitor Messages

Showing Visitor Messages 11 to 20 of 62
  1. robbo203
    25th August 2012 23:07
    robbo203
    Huh? What are you on about? The very sentence you say Lenin did not say is included within the longer sentence from Lenin that you quote!!!! It is very clear what lenin is saying . He is making a distinction between state capitalism run in the interests of the capitalist class and state capitalism run (allegedly) in the interests of the whole people and is calling the latter socialism. The beginning and the end of the longer quote make absolutely no difference to the substantive meaning of the quote in question

    Regarding the convention of calling socialism the lower phase of communism perhaps you might care to cite hard evidence to back up your claim that this orginated in the Second International and prior to Lenin saying it. Where did you get this information from?
  2. l'Enfermé
    25th August 2012 21:45
    l'Enfermé
    And that's a lie. Lenin did not say "socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people", no, he said: "For socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly."

    You're taking the quote completely out of context and are omitting it's beginning and end. If put together, it's quite clear that he says, socialism is the next step from state-monopoly capitalism, and has ceased to be capitalist monopoly.

    I do not miss, you do.
  3. l'Enfermé
    25th August 2012 21:41
    l'Enfermé
    Lenin did not invent that convention, he was following the Second International Marxism convention where lower-phase/first-stage communism was called "socialism" and pure communism/higher-stage communism was called just "communism". The usual criticism was Lenin receives for this is that he 1) did not realize that Marx did not follow this convention and 2) Lenin invented it, and both points are proven wrong if you read the State and Revolution.

    Of course the scientific distinction between socialism and communism is clear, Marx did not believe otherwise(the fact that Lenin sometimes used different words for Marx's concepts is completely irrelevant, they're still talking about the same things). Marx did not believe that a state would not exist in lower-phase, he believed that a bourgeois state would not exist. In lower-stage communism/socialism, the state loses it's political functions and becomes an economic coordination mechanism.
  4. robbo203
    23rd August 2012 15:55
    robbo203
    On the other point you make about state capitalist monopoly you are misreading Lenin. He is trying to distinguish one form of state- capitalist monopoly from another and clearly says "socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people" meaning as opposed to a state capitalist monopoly serving the interests of the capitalists only. THAT is the point you miss . But it is still a state capitalist monopoly that he calls "socialism" and you can hardly deny what appears in black and white in front of your very eyes!
  5. robbo203
    23rd August 2012 15:51
    robbo203
    No you are dead wrong on both counts. Lenin did NOT simply comment on the fact, as he saw it, that people regarded socialism as the lower the phase of communism. It was actually lenin himself who introduced this innovation and palmed it off as a convention. Not only that, far this being a mere observation, he approved of this distinction in saying "But the scientific distinction between socialism and communism is clear." Lenin's confusion ran ever deeper since he contended that in this lower phase of communusm which he dubbed socialism"all citizens (woud be) transformed into hired employees of the state" . That a state would still exist in communism albeit the lower phase, contradicts everything Marx said about communism and also implies the continuation of wage labour as opposed to labour vouchers
  6. l'Enfermé
    23rd August 2012 15:08
    l'Enfermé
    So in no way is Lenin implying that state-monopoly capitalism run the interests of the whole people is socialism. He says "for socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly." So he's clearly saying that socialism comes after state-capitalist monopoly, so how can it be inferred that he's saying that socialism is state-monopoly capitalism run in the interests of the whole people? "...ceased to be capitalist monopoly". If state-capitalist monopoly ceased to be capitalist, it's obviously not state-capitalist monopoly anymore.
  7. l'Enfermé
    23rd August 2012 15:08
    l'Enfermé
    What Lenin means is crystal clear. He means: State-monopoly capitalism is the last stage of capitalism, it's the most advanced form of capitalism so far, it's the last form of capitalism before socialism, the only place to go from here is socialism. Advancing FROM monopolies is advancing TOWARDS socialism. "state-monopoly capitalism is a complete material preparation for socialism, the threshold of socialism".
  8. l'Enfermé
    23rd August 2012 15:05
    l'Enfermé
    That's simply ridiculous. Lenin didn't describe socialism as the lower phase("first-stage) of communism, he said that what Marx called lower-stage communism is "usually" called "socialism"(usually called that during his times, not Marx's), yet in the State and Revolution, where he allegedly "redefines" socialism, he still calls his socialism(lower phase communism) "communist society".

    And no, Lenin never defined socialism as "state capitalist monopoly run in the interests of the whole people". That's another fabrication abused by Anarchists and Ultra-Lefts. The original quote is from here http://www.marxists.org/archive/leni.../ichtci/11.htm
  9. robbo203
    23rd August 2012 10:37
    robbo203
    Hi Inferme

    I think the point about Lenin's redefintion of socialism is that he was not "merely" updating the term to reflect modern usage. He was himself actively contributing to this alteration in the meaning of the term. An added complication is that his describing socialism as the lower phase of communiusm (which is a distortion of Marx's view) contradicts his other new definition of socialism as state capitalist monopoly run in the interests of the whole people. Lenin was thus fundamentally inconsistent even in his redefintion of socialism
  10. l'Enfermé
    22nd August 2012 14:25
    l'Enfermé
    Regarding "vanguard-ism", it's not central to Leninism(let's pretend there's such a thing as Leninism). It's not anything to Leninism, "vanguard-ism" is a later Stalinist invention. The vanguard party is an entirely different thing, and good examples would be the pre-war SPD, the RKP(b), and the CNT-FAI. The point of one is to raise the entire class-conscious proletariat to the level of revolutionaries, and to distill class-consciousness to those workers who are still under the spell of false consciousness. The vanguard Party has nothing to do with conspiracies, small circles of revolutionaries, elitism, Blanqusim, and all that nonsense. The SPD in it's revolutionary period, for example, had a million worker-members(and 2.5 million workers in it's trade unions), and it was in Lenin's eyes, until 1914, the model vanguard party.

    And yeah, sorry for 3 posts, but it didn't all fit into 1.

About Me

  • About robbo203
    Biography
    Originally from South Africa, emigrated to UK and then Spain
    Location
    Andalucia, Spain
    Interests
    economics , history, travel,
    Occupation
    horny handed son of toil (gardener)
    Political Statement
    anarcho communist
    Gender
    Male
    Organisation
    world in common
    Organisation Contact Details
    www.worldincommon.org
  • Signature
    For genuine free access communism
    http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=792

Statistics

Total Posts
Visitor Messages
Total Thanks
General Information
  • Last Activity: Today 06:34
  • Join Date: 17th December 2006
  • Referrals: 0

Friends

Showing Friends 1 to 10 of 28

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:09.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.