Marx and contradiction - Page 4

trivas7 · #61 9th July 2008, 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein

Well, here again you show your ignorance, for both Hegel and Marx derived historical materialism from the Scottish Historical Materialists, Ferguson, Millar, Smith and Hume (among others).

Nope, sorry; no one before Marx applied dialectics to the history of human society:

Quote:

Originally Posted by F. Engels

Just as Darwin discovered the law of evolution in organic nature, so Marx discovered the law of evolution in human history: he discovered the simple fact, hitherto concealed by an overgrowth of ideology, that mankind must first of all eat and drink, have shelter and clothing, before it can pursue politics, science, religion, art, etc., and that therefore the production of the immediate material means of subsistence and consequently the degree of economic development attained by a given people or during a given epoch, form the foundation upon which the state institutions, the legal conceptions, the art and even the religious ideas of the people concerned have been evolved, and in the light of which these things must therefore must be explained, instead of vice versa as had hitherto been the case.

-- Engels "Speech at the Gravesite of Karl Marx" (1883)

This is basic Marxism.

Rosa Lichtenstein · #62 10th July 2008, 00:21

Trivas:

Quote:

no one before Marx applied dialectics to the history of human society:

But, you didn't claim this; you said:

Quote:

There was no historical materialism before Marx. He didn't derive it, he discovered it.

Which, as I have shown, is incorrect.

Now, I am quite happy to agree with you that he applied this theory in a totally new way, but, in order to do that, he had to strip it of every last vestige of Hegel, as I have also shown.

Quote:

Just as Darwin discovered the law of evolution in organic nature, so Marx discovered the law of evolution in human history: he discovered the simple fact, hitherto concealed by an overgrowth of ideology, that mankind must first of all eat and drink, have shelter and clothing, before it can pursue politics, science, religion, art, etc., and that therefore the production of the immediate material means of subsistence and consequently the degree of economic development attained by a given people or during a given epoch, form the foundation upon which the state institutions, the legal conceptions, the art and even the religious ideas of the people concerned have been evolved, and in the light of which these things must therefore must be explained, instead of vice versa as had hitherto been the case.

You see, no Hegel anywhere in sight.

And I agree, this is basic Marxism: no Hegel.

trivas7 · #63 10th July 2008, 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein

But, you didn't claim this; you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by trivas7

There was no historical materialism before Marx. He didn't derive it, he discovered it.

Which, as I have shown, is incorrect.

Now, I am quite happy to agree with you that he applied this theory in a totally new way, but, in order to do that, he had to strip it of every last vestige of Hegel, as I have also shown.

Are you dense? This "totally new way" is HM, there was no other before Marx.

This is basic Marxism.

Rosa Lichtenstein · #64 10th July 2008, 01:17

Trivas:

Quote:

This "totally new way" is HM, there was no other before Marx.

You are clearly living in your own little dream world. Nevertheless, I am sorry to have to tell you (well, not really), the facts are tell another story -- Marx did not invent this theory; indeed he even praised Adam Ferguson for his insight.

Quote:

Are you dense?

Yes, I think your stupidity is beginning to rub off on me.

Can't hope to emulate your level of expertise though, much as I try to lose higher mental functions by the hour in my bid to copy you.

Do you give lessons by any chance?

trivas7 · #65 10th July 2008, 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein

You are clearly living in your own little dream world. Nevertheless, I am sorry to have to tell you (well, not really), the facts are tell another story -- Marx did not invent this theory; indeed he even praised Adam Ferguson for his insight.

I see, Marx was really a follower of Ferguson who discovered HM -- is this what you would have me believe?

Rosa Lichtenstein · #66 10th July 2008, 04:58

Trivas:

Quote:

I see, Marx was really a follower of Ferguson who discovered HM -- is this what you would have me believe?

You used the word 'follower', not me.

And, you can believe what you like, the facts speak for themselves: Marx no more dicovered historical materialism than he discovered the labour theory of value. [Adam Smith was in fact one of the Scottish Historical Materialists.]

Quote:

Adam Smith (1723—90) and Adam Ferguson (1723—1816) shared a keen interest in the social, economic and individual effects of specialization. Though this mutual interest led to a protracted priority dispute between them, nevertheless their approaches differed significantly. Ferguson was generally more negative in his attitude and was also less interested in the economic effects of specialization, focusing instead on its adverse social ramifications. In fact, his work on the subject probably constitutes the first fully developed sociological account of the topic. Karl Marx quoted Ferguson approvingly and declared that he had been inspired by the latter's insights. But Smith too made some extremely negative and apparently pessimistic observations about the division of labour, giving rise to suggestions that his comments also 'constitute a major source of inspiration for the socialist critique' of commercialism....

http://jcs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/a...t/7/3/339?etoc

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