International Socialist Organization

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  1. iskrabronstein
    iskrabronstein
    Hello comrades, does anyone happen to be a member of/affiliated with the ISO? What does their platform look like? They are the socialist party with the closest branch to my location, and I am interested in finding out what work they are involved in.
  2. Q
    Q
    Maybe you could go to a meeting of theirs and see/ask what they are about?
  3. fredbergen
    The ISO celebrated the election of the imperialist commander in chief, Obama, (see the flier an inaugural celebration the ISO sponsored in Seattle, below) and hailed his war budget as "a welcome blast of fresh air." Marxists, on the other hand, are opposed to all capitalist parties and politicians, and fight to defeat our own imperialist rulers in their wars by mobilizing the power of the international working class.

  4. chegitz guevara
    chegitz guevara
    I don't see where the ISO is endorsing anything, Fred. That is an amazingly crappy article, though.
  5. Kléber
    The ISO is the biggest revolutionary socialist group in the US, larger than dozens of "parties" combined, but I don't agree with their analysis of the USSR as state-capitalist nor their sustained entrism in the Green Party.

    An ISO activist told me to vote for Obama because his inability to come through on "hope and change" would create a better climate for real socialist agitation, and I think they have supported Democrat candidates in the past, with a mind to pushing them left. That picture does clearly go much further than Obama with the most important demands on the bottom right. But the presence of Obama portrait posters at the top of a socialist poster can only sow confusion.
  6. redphilly
    redphilly
    .[/quote]An ISO activist told me to vote for Obama because his inability to come through on "hope and change" would create a better climate for real socialist agitation, and I think they have supported Democrat candidates in the past, with a mind to pushing them left. That picture does clearly go much further than Obama with the most important demands on the bottom right. But the presence of Obama portrait posters at the top of a socialist poster can only sow confusion.[/quote]

    The poster is indeed strange for a /revolutionary/ group. I agree that this would sow confusion - much like the Workers World leaflet making the rounds in Philly for their jobs march (Mya 8) with the portrait of FDR on it. Scandalous.
  7. fredbergen
    For more information, read "The 'Obama Socialists'" from The Internationalist no. 28 (March-April 2009).
  8. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    Can we see an official statement from an ISO source on this before we see yet more 'anti-other-Trotskyist-group' sectarianism? Or is that asking too much?

    And I'm not sure which is worse: the call for a vote for Obama (if it happened) or our invetertate sectarianism toward fellow Trotskyists (one of the main reasons for our lack of success over the last 70 years), which is, it seems, the only thing we are good at.
  9. fredbergen
    Who is this "we" you are talking about? The ISO is not a Trotskyist organization. Marxists (Trotskyists) do not support capitalist parties and politicians, the ISO does. Trotskyists defended the Soviet Union, the ISO celebrated the counterrevolution. If explaining the key political differences between various self-described "socialists" is sectarian, then Marx and Engels were sectarian when they wrote the Communist Manifesto.
  10. chegitz guevara
    chegitz guevara
    Yes, the IG is the only true Trotskyist group in the world.
  11. fredbergen
    Well, yes. But there's no point debating this with someone so degenerate and cynical as you, the "socialist" who retails the lynch-mob's lies about innocent class-war prisoner Mumia Abu-Jamal.

    The point of political clarification and debate isn't to leave the alignment of organizations as it is and declare a "winner" -- it is to win the human material of revolution, the cadre, to the revolutionary program and organization through a series of splits and fusions. Anyone who retails police lies in the service of legal lynching is irrelevant to this process.
  12. Q
    Q
    This is a thread on the ISO, not the self-importance of the IG.
  13. fredbergen
    In order to evaluate something, it is useful to have a point of comparison. One way to evaluate liberal anti-communism (ISO) is by comparing it to Trotskyism (IG).
  14. Q
    Q
    Quote Originally Posted by fredbergen
    In order to evaluate something, it is useful to have a point of comparison. One way to evaluate liberal anti-communism (ISO) is by comparing it to Trotskyism (IG).
    In my opinion you're just trolling and derailing a discussion on the ISO and well, my opinion matters. Your last three posts added nothing to the discussion at hand. If you want to show how great the IG is, open your own discussion. Keep this one on topic.
  15. fredbergen
    All right, fair enough. I think I made my point.
  16. Rosa Lichtenstein
    Rosa Lichtenstein
    FredBergen:

    Who is this "we" you are talking about? The ISO is not a Trotskyist organization. Marxists (Trotskyists) do not support capitalist parties and politicians, the ISO does. Trotskyists defended the Soviet Union, the ISO celebrated the counterrevolution. If explaining the key political differences between various self-described "socialists" is sectarian, then Marx and Engels were sectarian when they wrote the Communist Manifesto.
    "We"? Us non-sectarians, that's who.

    And, your criteria for what constitutes a Trotskyist 1) would turn Trotskyism into a set of changeless dogmas, and 2) buries political differences with a label.

    And we have yet to see an official ISO statement that supports Obama.
  17. ProgressiveThinker90
    ProgressiveThinker90
    Quote Originally Posted by chegitz guevara
    Yes, the IG is the only true Trotskyist group in the world.
    No, the International Communist League is the only true Trotskyist group in the world. The IG are centrist defectors from the real Trorskyism of the ICL.
  18. Q
    Q
    Quote Originally Posted by ProgressiveThinker90
    No, the International Communist League is the only true Trotskyist group in the world. The IG are centrist defectors from the real Trorskyism of the ICL.
    Is self-mockery or are you real?
  19. ProgressiveThinker90
    ProgressiveThinker90
    The ISO is are reformists. They supported the Islamic theocracy in Iran and the mujaheddin in Afghanistan. They have the illusion that capitalism can be reformed. The reason they have so many members is that they try to build "the largest possible coalition."
  20. Kassad
    Kassad
    Quote Originally Posted by Q
    Is self-mockery or are you real?
    I normally wouldn't intervene in a conversation here, but the person you quoted is a member of the Spartacist League, the United States affiliate of the International Communist League. The Spartacists and the Internationalist Group have about 100 members in the United States combined, since they spend 80% of the text in their newspapers attacking each other and other socialist groups.

    In short, they're irrelevant, they're arrogant and they're insanely annoying. They consider their organization and only their organization to be the true heirs of Trotskyist theory. For the sake of your brain, ignore them.
  21. ProgressiveThinker90
    ProgressiveThinker90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kassad
    I normally wouldn't intervene in a conversation here, but the person you quoted is a member of the Spartacist League, the United States affiliate of the International Communist League. The Spartacists and the Internationalist Group have about 100 members in the United States combined, since they spend 80% of the text in their newspapers attacking each other and other socialist groups.

    In short, they're irrelevant, they're arrogant and they're insanely annoying. They consider their organization and only their organization to be the true heirs of Trotskyist theory. For the sake of your brain, ignore them.
    80% of their text?. Have you ever read the Workers Vanguard?. It is necessary to respond to the IG's slander but the Spartacist League's literature is very good. They make a point when they criticize the IG.
  22. Kassad
    Kassad
    Quote Originally Posted by ProgressiveThinker90
    80% of their text?. Have you ever read the Workers Vanguard?. It is necessary to respond to the IG's slander but the Spartacist League's literature is very good. They make a point when they criticize the IG.
    I read just about every issue you put out. To be honest, both of your organizations make some legitimate criticisms of each other and other organizations (kind of like how the Internationalist Group and the International Bolshevik Tendency called you on your support for imperialist troops in Haiti, that your organization has recently chosen to backpeddle on), but the consistent sectarianism gets old. Kind of like how Spartacists will come up to PSL booths are rallies and try to give your newspaper to people who are interested in our party or are having a discussion with our supporters. Regardless, we're growing rapidly, whereas the International Communist League is not, so I'm not really concerned.

    You would be considered relevant perhaps, but the consistent fragmentation of our breed of Trotskyist thought makes it impossible for you to really accomplish anything. It's a shame, since your political line, aside from the hostility in your actions and publications, is actually a pretty decent one. I actually considered learning more about it before I heard about the whole, you know, pushing a member of the ISO down a flight of stairs. Shit happens, I guess.
  23. ProgressiveThinker90
    ProgressiveThinker90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kassad
    I read just about every issue you put out. To be honest, both of your organizations make some legitimate criticisms of each other and other organizations (kind of like how the Internationalist Group and the International Bolshevik Tendency called you on your support for imperialist troops in Haiti, that your organization has recently chosen to backpeddle on), but the consistent sectarianism gets old. Kind of like how Spartacists will come up to PSL booths are rallies and try to give your newspaper to people who are interested in our party or are having a discussion with our supporters. Regardless, we're growing rapidly, whereas the International Communist League is not, so I'm not really concerned.

    You would be considered relevant perhaps, but the consistent fragmentation of our breed of Trotskyist thought makes it impossible for you to really accomplish anything. It's a shame, since your political line, aside from the hostility in your actions and publications, is actually a pretty decent one. I actually considered learning more about it before I heard about the whole, you know, pushing a member of the ISO down a flight of stairs. Shit happens, I guess.
    The Spartacist League was not going to call for US/UN troops out of Haiti while they were giving out aid that the Haitians desperately needed. The IG idiotically thought the earthquake was a revolutionary situation. I go to Spartacist League meetings so I will ask the organizers about pushing an ISO member down a flight of stairs. I heard the PSL ran candidates for the capitalist Green party. I do not think capitalism can be reformed. I really do agree with what the Spartacist League has to say. It all makes sense to me.
  24. Kassad
    Kassad
    Quote Originally Posted by ProgressiveThinker90
    The Spartacist League was not going to call for US/UN troops out of Haiti while they were giving out aid that the Haitians desperately needed. The IG idiotically thought the earthquake was a revolutionary situation. I go to Spartacist League meetings so I will ask the organizers about pushing an ISO member down a flight of stairs. I heard the PSL ran candidates for the capitalist Green party. I do not think capitalism can be reformed. I really do agree with what the Spartacist League has to say. It all makes sense to me.
    Jesus, man. Do they really have you brainwashed? The PSL participates in the electoral arena because it is a means of promoting revolutionary socialism as an alternative to capitalism. PSL members have worked with the Green Party before to obtain ballot access but they don't run as Green Party members. They run as PSL members and promote socialist platforms, as well as our party's revolutionary Marxist program. Learn the facts and keep up with something other than just Workers Vanguard.

    Honestly, I give it another 10 years or so before another split. You're all so paranoid and hostile that you'll split over just about anything. If the Spartacist League's absurd and skewed breed of Marxism makes sense to you, than your head is already too far in the ground for me to help.
  25. ProgressiveThinker90
    ProgressiveThinker90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kassad
    Jesus, man. Do they really have you brainwashed? The PSL participates in the electoral arena because it is a means of promoting revolutionary socialism as an alternative to capitalism. PSL members have worked with the Green Party before to obtain ballot access but they don't run as Green Party members. They run as PSL members and promote socialist platforms, as well as our party's revolutionary Marxist program. Learn the facts and keep up with something other than just Workers Vanguard.

    Honestly, I give it another 10 years or so before another split. You're all so paranoid and hostile that you'll split over just about anything. If the Spartacist League's absurd and skewed breed of Marxism makes sense to you, than your head is already too far in the ground for me to help.
    The Spartacist League thinks the PSL is a reformist organization like the ISO. Maybe there is more to it than what I can see because after all I am not a very smart person but I am going to stick with the Spartacist League.
  26. Kassad
    Kassad
    Quote Originally Posted by ProgressiveThinker90
    The Spartacist League thinks the PSL is a reformist organization like the ISO. Maybe there is more to it than what I can see because after all I am not a very smart person but I am going to stick with the Spartacist League.
    So because the Spartacist League says so and you choose to be malleable and not think for yourself or do any actual research, you'll let others decide what is true for you? Just because a bunch of outdated, irrelevant people think a group is 'reformist', that doesn't make it true. Fucking think for yourself. You shouldn't even be called a Marxist. Give me some actual evidence of my party's reformism, or else you might actually risk making your organization look more absurd than it truly is.
  27. ProgressiveThinker90
    ProgressiveThinker90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kassad
    So because the Spartacist League says so and you choose to be malleable and not think for yourself or do any actual research, you'll let others decide what is true for you? Just because a bunch of outdated, irrelevant people think a group is 'reformist', that doesn't make it true. Fucking think for yourself. You shouldn't even be called a Marxist. Give me some actual evidence of my party's reformism, or else you might actually risk making your organization look more absurd than it truly is.
    I can't post links so google this "For a Workers Party to Fight for a Workers Government!"
    Workers Vanguard
    No. 917
    Also on the PSL website I saw a picture of Che Guevara. The ICL disagrees with Che Guevara's tactics of peasant guerrilla warfare.
    Look for "Che Guevara and Repression of Cuban Trotskyists" on icl-fi,
    Workers Vanguard
    No. 917
  28. Kassad
    Kassad
    So you can't comprise a coherent argument to counter my claims, so you have to link me to long, drawn-out, theoretical shit, as opposed to actually presenting me with your own opinion? I could really use some kind of a shield to protect me from your ineptitude.
  29. ProgressiveThinker90
    ProgressiveThinker90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kassad
    So you can't comprise a coherent argument to counter my claims, so you have to link me to long, drawn-out, theoretical shit, as opposed to actually presenting me with your own opinion? I could really use some kind of a shield to protect me from your ineptitude.
    Smarter people than me in the Spartacist League could debate you better because like I said I am not a very smart person. I found out about this website on Facebook. I do not have much a social life. You seem like a well meaning person so I wish you well. If the PSL really is a good organization that can do some good for the world than I wish it well too.
  30. Q
    Q
    I remind people inhere that this discussion is not about the ICL, the IG, the IBT or PSL. It is about the ISO. Open your own thread if you want to discuss other subjects. I'm going to delete further derailings (I can't move/split sadly).
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