The concept of Racism within Marxist-Leninism. And distasteful defenses of Stalin.

  1. ArrowLance
    ArrowLance
    It isn't an obscure idea that Stalin was in some way racist and otherwise bigoted. I would not like to discuss whether or not he was in this thread, we can have other threads to discuss this. In this thread I would like to have a discussion about how the perception of Stalin among other Communists and the workers in general as a bigot should affect our actions and our emphasis.

    Regardless of how the answer to the question of Stalin is answered we must show that we are not bigoted and our policies do not involve bigotry. What I am saying is that even if Stalin were racist, and if he enacted racist or homophobic policies, these are in no way materially, theoretically, or ideologically bound to Marxist-Leninism.

    Additionally I've seen a lot of distasteful boasting of Stalin on these forums recently. People calling our ideology immortal or calling Stalin glorious. Saying things like this only make us appear to be cult-bound 'Stalinists' in every derogatory way they would like to believe we are. I think we should avoid this completely, imagine how bad it looks when Trotskyists claim Trotsky is the most important revolutionary figure in history, even greater than Marx. I feel this makes us look almost as bad.
  2. dodger
    dodger
    Quote Originally Posted by ArrowLance
    It isn't an obscure idea that Stalin was in some way racist and otherwise bigoted. I would not like to discuss whether or not he was in this thread, we can have other threads to discuss this. In this thread I would like to have a discussion about how the perception of Stalin among other Communists and the workers in general as a bigot should affect our actions and our emphasis.

    Regardless of how the answer to the question of Stalin is answered we must show that we are not bigoted and our policies do not involve bigotry. What I am saying is that even if Stalin were racist, and if he enacted racist or homophobic policies, these are in no way materially, theoretically, or ideologically bound to Marxist-Leninism.

    Additionally I've seen a lot of distasteful boasting of Stalin on these forums recently. People calling our ideology immortal or calling Stalin glorious. Saying things like this only make us appear to be cult-bound 'Stalinists' in every derogatory way they would like to believe we are. I think we should avoid this completely, imagine how bad it looks when Trotskyists claim Trotsky is the most important revolutionary figure in history, even greater than Marx. I feel this makes us look almost as bad.
    wELL IN 1ST FEW WEEKS i WAS ACCUSED BY A COMRADE OF GIVING THE WORST DEFENE OF STALIN HE HAD EVER READ ON REVLEFT. i HAD MERELY GIVEN MY OPINION DISTILLLED OVER MANY YEARS. OF THE RIBBENTROP MOLOTOV PACT. GAVE MY REASONS FOR SUPPORTING IT. I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE A FAIR CRITICISM. NOT CLEAR TO ME. GLORIOUS IMMORTAL SILLY . WHERE DID YOU SEE THAT, TONGUE IN CHEEK? NOT MY VIEW OF STALIN OR ANY OF THE BOLCHEVIKI. I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE STINGY WITH PRAISE FOR ANY CLASS WARRIOR WHO HAS MADE CONTRIBUTION OR SACRIFICE. CERTAINLY NOT BRIT WORKING CLASS CULTURE TO HEAP PRAISE. WE DESPISE POLITICOS AND CAN SPOT THE GENUINE ARTICLE.

    bUT YOU ARE SPOT ON THE TRUTH REALITY IS FAR MORE INTERESTING AND CAN SOMETIMES INFORM THE PRESENT. BIGOTS ARE LAZY. Weak tea ..yuck. Bigots are despised full stop!
  3. JAM
    JAM
    Quote Originally Posted by ArrowLance
    It isn't an obscure idea that Stalin was in some way racist and otherwise bigoted. I would not like to discuss whether or not he was in this thread, we can have other threads to discuss this. In this thread I would like to have a discussion about how the perception of Stalin among other Communists and the workers in general as a bigot should affect our actions and our emphasis.

    Regardless of how the answer to the question of Stalin is answered we must show that we are not bigoted and our policies do not involve bigotry. What I am saying is that even if Stalin were racist, and if he enacted racist or homophobic policies, these are in no way materially, theoretically, or ideologically bound to Marxist-Leninism.

    Additionally I've seen a lot of distasteful boasting of Stalin on these forums recently. People calling our ideology immortal or calling Stalin glorious. Saying things like this only make us appear to be cult-bound 'Stalinists' in every derogatory way they would like to believe we are. I think we should avoid this completely, imagine how bad it looks when Trotskyists claim Trotsky is the most important revolutionary figure in history, even greater than Marx. I feel this makes us look almost as bad.
    The problem is that you and some other Marxist-Leninist fail to see that when Stalin is attacked is not only Stalin who is being targeted and attacked but the all Marxist-Leninist ideology and everything around it including Lenin. Nobody in this forum is trying to glorify Stalin (at least I didn't see it) but rather demystifying some lies that were propagated during years against Stalin. If this makes you feel uncomfortable (maybe because you also have a distorted image of Stalin) I can't do anything about it. I will continuing to defend him when I see that it's justifiable like in the racism issue. You seem so convinced like the other users who weren't able to prove their point (maybe because are just another false claims).

    It wasn't an obscure idea also that Stalin killed 100 or 50 million of people and now the number is already at 3 million and this number isn't even accurate yet.

    It wasn't an obscure idea that living in USSR during Stalin reign was horrible and the miserable. Now we know that living standards improved a lot during Stalin era and the PIB per capita actually grew more in USSR during the thirties than in other country in the World including USA and I have the numbers if you want. I bet you didn't know it, did you?

    Think about this too: is credit to Mao a lot more deaths than Stalin. However, Mao is very far from being attacked like Stalin is. If you say that you appreciate Mao nobody cares really, but if you say that you appreciate Stalin the world crumbles. China have a big picture of Mao exposed in the Capital. Can you imagine if some country does this with a Stalin picture? This difference between Stalin and others socialist leaders is not by chance.

    The fact is that Stalin picked up a backward country and left it on its way to send a man to space. Stalin defeated Nazism. Russia became a world superpower. This success as a leader isn't paralleled in World History. You can't find a single man who changed so much a country in World History as Stalin did in USSR. The most curious thing is that I said this multiple times in hostile forums and no one was able to contradict this.

    For me this success was not due to any divine quality of Stalin but instead the fact that he applied Marxism-Leninism rigorously and this is one of the reasons why I admire him. Most of the socialist leaders preferred to leave Marxism-Leninism and follow their own path (that's why you have Maoism, Juche, Titoism, etc) but Stalin never denied the ideology and remained committed to Marx and Lenin until the end.

    Don't see this as an attempt to glorify him but rather to explain you why Stalin is much more attacked than other socialist figures, much of the times unjustifiably. He committed multiple errors as well, no doubt about it. After all, nobody is perfect. Innocents were killed during 1937-38 and I don't support this at all. The appointment of truly assassins like Yezhov was also a major error which he corrected it later.
  4. ArrowLance
    ArrowLance
    Quote Originally Posted by JAM
    The problem is that you and some other Marxist-Leninist fail to see that when Stalin is attacked is not only Stalin who is being targeted and attacked but the all Marxist-Leninist ideology and everything around it including Lenin. Nobody in this forum is trying to glorify Stalin (at least I didn't see it) but rather demystifying some lies that were propagated during years against Stalin. If this makes you feel uncomfortable (maybe because you also have a distorted image of Stalin) I can't do anything about it. I will continuing to defend him when I see that it's justifiable like in the racism issue. You seem so convinced like the other users who weren't able to prove their point (maybe because are just another false claims).

    It wasn't an obscure idea also that Stalin killed 100 or 50 million of people and now the number is already at 3 million and this number isn't even accurate yet.

    It wasn't an obscure idea that living in USSR during Stalin reign was horrible and the miserable. Now we know that living standards improved a lot during Stalin era and the PIB per capita actually grew more in USSR during the thirties than in other country in the World including USA and I have the numbers if you want. I bet you didn't know it, did you?

    Think about this too: is credit to Mao a lot more deaths than Stalin. However, Mao is very far from being attacked like Stalin is. If you say that you appreciate Mao nobody cares really, but if you say that you appreciate Stalin the world crumbles. China have a big picture of Mao exposed in the Capital. Can you imagine if some country does this with a Stalin picture? This difference between Stalin and others socialist leaders is not by chance.

    The fact is that Stalin picked up a backward country and left it on its way to send a man to space. Stalin defeated Nazism. Russia became a world superpower. This success as a leader isn't paralleled in World History. You can't find a single man who changed so much a country in World History as Stalin did in USSR. The most curious thing is that I said this multiple times in hostile forums and no one was able to contradict this.

    For me this success was not due to any divine quality of Stalin but instead the fact that he applied Marxism-Leninism rigorously and this is one of the reasons why I admire him. Most of the socialist leaders preferred to leave Marxism-Leninism and follow their own path (that's why you have Maoism, Juche, Titoism, etc) but Stalin never denied the ideology and remained committed to Marx and Lenin until the end.

    Don't see this as an attempt to glorify him but rather to explain you why Stalin is much more attacked than other socialist figures, much of the times unjustifiably. He committed multiple errors as well, no doubt about it. After all, nobody is perfect. Innocents were killed during 1937-38 and I don't support this at all. The appointment of truly assassins like Yezhov was also a major error which he corrected it later.
    I don't fail to see that many attacks on Stalin are in fact attacks on the working class movement, the USSR, and Socialism in general. I have seen ridiculous lines glorifying Stalin with no other substance in the comment. It makes us look sophomoric.

    In no way am I saying that Stalin shouldn't be defended, but when when the entirety of someones defense is calling Stalin immortal and glorious it looks bad for all of us.

    I'm not sure why you come at me with this condescending tone. I'm bringing up issues which I have observed and think would be good to discuss and you attack me directly.
  5. dodger
    dodger
    We are people from all over the world here. Different cultures express themselves in myriad ways. At same time many whose English is second often have a wonderful command. Lets not get into putting emphasis on high blown phrases. True not my cup of tea, Since we have wide range of ages, educational attainment, newbies or old style, lets drop the matter. This is a blog..lets all raise the level, standard and hope others will follow. In a party matters would stand better chance of being resolved. New? Monkey see monkey do. A party often has a particular style., IT SHOULD EVOLVE MOVE WITH THE TIMES.
    Praise Gallowsbird scourge of Fascists everywhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  6. ColonelCossack
    ColonelCossack
    Quote Originally Posted by dodger
    Different cultures express themselves in myriad ways.
    This, a lot.
  7. GallowsBird
    GallowsBird
    Quote Originally Posted by dodger
    Praise Gallowsbird scourge of Fascists everywhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Why thank you. Here, you may have a medal from my newly founded 'Order of GallowsBird' which will be awarded at the 'Shrine To The Supreme Cult of The Personality of Glorious Leader GallowsBird' just off of GallowsBird Square!
  8. Drosophila
    Quote Originally Posted by Jam
    The fact is that Stalin picked up a backward country and left it on its way to send a man to space. Stalin defeated Nazism. Russia became a world superpower. This success as a leader isn't paralleled in World History. You can't find a single man who changed so much a country in World History as Stalin did in USSR. The most curious thing is that I said this multiple times in hostile forums and no one was able to contradict this.
    This is the only part of your post I take some issue with. Are you implying that the post-Stalin USSR was good? After Stalin, the USSR did become a major world superpower, but it did so at the expense of Marxism-Leninism. Are you saying that this is a good thing? I think that holding Stalin responsible for these things contradicts our defenses of him.
  9. JAM
    JAM
    Quote Originally Posted by ArrowLance
    I don't fail to see that many attacks on Stalin are in fact attacks on the working class movement, the USSR, and Socialism in general. I have seen ridiculous lines glorifying Stalin with no other substance in the comment. It makes us look sophomoric.

    In no way am I saying that Stalin shouldn't be defended, but when when the entirety of someones defense is calling Stalin immortal and glorious it looks bad for all of us.

    I'm not sure why you come at me with this condescending tone. I'm bringing up issues which I have observed and think would be good to discuss and you attack me directly.
    I didn't mean to attack you, that wasn't certainly my intention. I just tried to explain to you why I defend Stalin.

    But I agree with you, we shouldn't say meaningless things like saying "Stalin is immortal or Stalin is Glorious" or just praise him without any basis. Every time I defend him or praise his work I do always with some base and preferable an impartial one like in the case of the living standards for instance.
  10. JAM
    JAM
    Quote Originally Posted by Five Dollars
    This is the only part of your post I take some issue with. Are you implying that the post-Stalin USSR was good? After Stalin, the USSR did become a major world superpower, but it did so at the expense of Marxism-Leninism. Are you saying that this is a good thing? I think that holding Stalin responsible for these things contradicts our defenses of him.
    Allow me to correct you, USSR became a superpower with Stalin in 1945 and not after Stalin but not in the imperialist sense as long as Stalin lived. USSR (and still Russia today) until the end in 1991 lived from what was achieved during Stalin era. Of course, as a admirer of Stalin's legacy I cannot approve the de-stalinization which came next and meant a new path in the USSR political course (liberal reforms, decentralization, peaceful coexistence, a more imperialistic approach, etc).

    USSR became a superpower with Stalin but not at the expense of the Marxism-Leninism, on the contrary. As I said above, for me the secret behind Stalin's success was his loyalty to Marxism-Leninism. He never rejected it and the USSR became indeed a superpower with him, not only after. He can't be blamed for the fact that his successors denied his legacy and used a more imperialistic approach after him. Maybe you were confused because I used the word "superpower" but it wasn't in the imperialistic sense of the word.
  11. Comrade Samuel
    Comrade Samuel
    Quote Originally Posted by ArrowLance
    I don't fail to see that many attacks on Stalin are in fact attacks on the working class movement, the USSR, and Socialism in general. I have seen ridiculous lines glorifying Stalin with no other substance in the comment. It makes us look sophomoric.

    In no way am I saying that Stalin shouldn't be defended, but when when the entirety of someones defense is calling Stalin immortal and glorious it looks bad for all of us.

    I'm not sure why you come at me with this condescending tone. I'm bringing up issues which I have observed and think would be good to discuss and you attack me directly.
    It's hard not to give the man credit when he was without a doubt the most important single person in the M-L movement of the early to mid 20th century but when 90% of topics on this site are about him it's also hard not to spend so much of our time refuting lies and propaganda rather than pointing out the achievements of other notable M-Ls and with that it's nearly impossible not to seem like a Stalin worship cult.

    People here forget that Stalin was a person and that with people there's not one single line that clearly says good or bad but rather than thinking like that too many find it way easy to just say he's either a terrible dictator or a glimmer or intellectual light in a time of dark idiocy.
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