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Originally Posted by Jurko
I would like to say that I appreciate this discussion. We do have really opposite opinions, but I hope that you realize that I have nothing against you and stuff. I have to write these, because people are usually upset about stuff like this - about criticizing their organisations etc.
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I appreciate this discussion as well, and of course I dont think that you have anything against me, and I hope you realise the same. Although dont think that I automatically jump up to defend my organisation, I realise that theres a lot of flaws and errors that needs correcting. Im just not sure I agree with you over what exactly the errors are.
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But still it's receives state funds and it has bureaucrats, centralized structure, ombudsman's etc. These things are bad, aren't they?
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Bureaucrats? Where? What? How? Please explain, as I consider this accusation ludicrous, and please source it. Centralized structure? In what way does the SAC have a centralised structure? I completely disagree, each LS is basically autonomous and governs itself, through its members (the active ones at least, but thats another discussion). Ombudsman? The SAC has consequently stripped them of their powers ever since the 80's, and today, they can only be appointed (by a direct vote by the members) for two years at a time, two times. Also, at the congress in 2006, the number of ombudsmen the SAC is allowed to have was limited to three (3). Theyre now called organisers though, for future reference.
Either way, I agree, all of those things you listed are bad things, but I fail to see how they are connected to the SAC of today.
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I know for Malmö group, and I also know that each SAC's LS has different structure. For example Stockholm LS (which structure I kind of liked I hated only three bureaucrats) and Malmö are different.
Still, you can't call SAC anarcho-syndicalist organisation if you use ombudsman's and lawyers. Then, tell me what's the difference between SAC and any other reformist union? Here in Croatia we have this union which is regular workers union, not inspired by any ideology, and still they operate like SAC. They use lawyers and sometimes they use direct action (strikes, occupation of workplaces etc.).
I mean, you know what's anarcho-syndicalist practice, right?
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I have never called the SAC an anarcho-syndicalist organisation, and I wouldnt do that either, because frankly, they arent an anarcho-syndicalist organisation, and Im not sure I want them to be one either.
The difference between the SAC, is the organisational structure, for one thing. It is entirely different from the various reformist unions, in that we give each local branch a completely different position, almost an autonomous one. This sort of organisation does not exist in the reformist unions, at least not in Sweden. We do not call people out to strike, we expect them to take this decision themselves, it would be unthinkable for us to do so, while the reformist unions have no problem with this praxis, and use it consequently. I could go on for a while, but it would be silly, and I dont think I have to either, you are well aware of the differences.
Furthermore, just as a side note, going to court does not equate using lawyers and bureaucrats. In my LS, its the members that does everything, even go to court. They do this without expecting to get paid, with the exception of compensation for lost working-hours, which I find completely valid.
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It's not about "puritan standards". There's this thing called anarcho-syndicalism.. it's this, this, this and this. If you don't fill up the form then you are not anarcho-syndicalist organisation. There's point in that "form" and you can't just pragmatically change your practice and then attack people for they "puritan standards" if they say that something is wrong.
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Indeed there are things called anarcho-syndicalism. There are also things called dogmatism and sectarianism, which I believe the IWA are at part guilty of (the "no contact" decision, for one thing). What I have done, is not to "pragmatically changed my practice", but to realise that there are problems with living up to every single one of the anarcho-syndicalist textbook principles. I fully acknowledge that there are issues to be dealt with in the SAC, and we are trying to deal with them, although I am not sure I would support an entrance into the IWA at this time.
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Well, I consider that SAC is not anarcho-syndicalist union and that they are heading to the reformist road. Still, I agree with you regarding new principles. I like them and I would like to see SAC in IWA once again. But I don't think that this is going to happen in next 30 years. I think that members of SAC must be educated about anarcho-syndicalism, because as I heard most of them don't know what it is.
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Agreed, for the most part. I dont think the SAC is heading down a reformist path, and I think we have taken steps in the opposite direction. I cant speak for the entire SAC when it comes to knowledge of anarcho-syndicalism, but its certainly something that needs to be brought up.
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But, SAC's problem is not only state founds. Bureaucracy, "old farts" who would like to see SAC looking like LO, workers without class conscious, members who have never heard for anarcho-syndicalism, IWA or someting like that, no communication between groups, etc. Also, regarding international communication I can notice authoritarian practice in SAC as some individuals just chose organisations with which will SAC cooperate without asking whole SAC. For example, SAC is in contact with IP from Poland, which is reactionary authoritarian organisation which openly collaborate with Bolsheviks and fascists (it was on their web page!).
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I believe I have answered some of these points above, but if you want me to expand further, please let me know and Ill try.
When it comes to the authoritarian structure in which the SAC conducts its foreign and international communications, please give me a source. I am not very familiar with how the SAC conducts these things, and I will hold it as an option that what youre saying is true, but I wont accept it if you cant show it to me. As to who the SAC actually has contacts with, I would venture as far as guessing were only in contact with the ones we are in contact with (although I hope we wouldve been in contact with many of them even if we were actually part of the IWA), because we have no other options. The members of the IWA are not allowed to have contacts with the SAC. We are sort of limited as to our international contacts. I hope you realise that this is one of the reasons for our "foreign policy". I would also guess that its not very attractive to be in contact with the ones that actually threw the SAC out in the first place (although I think it wouldnt matter now). As to the organisational structures and partners of the IP, that may well be, but I know virtually nothing about them, except for an occasional article in Arbetaren, so I wont comment further on that.
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It's not just about survive it's about functioning and principles. Altroguht, I have to admit that SAC is still mass organisation and that many of organisations from IWA are not like that. It's shame for movement.
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Agreed. Its about principles as well, but its hard to have principles if you dont exist. I would be very disappointed and disillusioned if the SAC dismantled due to adhering strictly to the principles of anarcho-syndicalism. You pinpoint another of the problems between the SAC and IWA, namely what kinds of organisations the IWA actually consists of. Many (or some) of the organisations in the IWA are not mass organisations, but rather closely knit ideological comrades, if you understand me, and it is far easier to stay on a revolutionary path when youre not a mass organisation, which I think the split between the CNT and CGT shows. The continued existance of the CNT does prove that its possible though, so dont get me wrong.