A communist society should not infringe on anyones human rights, religion in my mind is a human right. People should be allowed to believe what they believe and to organize with others who believe the same way. Whether or not the organization has some form of hierarchy with priests and bishops or whatever should be decided by the people involved in that particular religious organization.

This should be in opposing ideologies, under the religion subforum.

Un(fortunately!) religion is not a 'human right', it's a tool of opression- and is in fact commonly used to justify human rights abuses.

Except when those organisations and beliefs promote anti-communist/revolutionary attitudes, homophobia/heterosexism, sexism, racism, and basically any reactionary position you can come up with except maybe fascism, although 'the church' has managed to get itself involved with a few fascist regimes/orgs. over-time.

Except that this is not the case. Because the hierarchy of 'the church' is the will of 'god'- these are 'his' chosen representatives- and one of the central messages of monotheism is obedience/submission to 'god's will'. It's not 'christian' to question the religous hierarchy or challenge the authority of 'god' or 'the church'- because a good 'christian' is meant to obey both, completely- to 'have faith' and trust in their authority.

How you can mentally justify being a so-called 'anarcho-communist' with a support for one of history's most reactionary anti-communist hierarchies i'll never know.

All the more reason for the Bolsheviks to remove the church then. Remember that this was a revolution, the aim was to sweep away all traces of the old regime.

The persecution of the Church ended during WWII when Stalin began to increasingly rely of traditional Russian heroes to inspire the masses. After that it was more or less allowed to exist.

I think that many people Think wrong about communism and Religion..
Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels didn't mean that religion was bad and that it should be Denied in all forms...But they ment that you shouldn't let Religion Take over the power over the society..

A lot of people think that Religoin is something what never must exicst in Communism..
And that's not the right way to think about Religion and Communism...
People who are against Communism are going to abuse this..
For an Example : In Afghanistan the Mujahedin told the people that the Communists in Afghanistan where non religious people...so all the Extremist Muslims fought against the Communist Party...

If people try to craete a communistic Nation where religion is forbiden, then i must tell you that you're going to start on something what can never have a good result..

Religion is something that helps you to become a good Humane , but most of the religions that exicst in this time are form thousands of years ago, and a lot of people think that the things that where a thousand years ago are still the same as today...
But if you can convince these people that religion isn't the same as back than, then you'll have a lot of new people who are supporting you in what you do...

Lenin did this the wrong way he abused his power and just shuted the whole place down... Now there are a lot of Christian Russians who hate communism because they say that the communists forbid there religion...

So i think that Communism and Religion is a good combination, but religion has to change by it's time

Short answer:

No.


We've repeated this topic so many times.

A Communist CANNOT be religous, its a contradiction in terms.

Zingu's right. There's a sticky in this (Religion) forum about this exact issue. If you read through that and have something to contribute, that's the place to do it. That's why stickies exist.

Fidel Castro had all the churches removed from Cuba and not too long ago (a little bit before the Pope`s visit) he allowed them. From what I understand and from my research, it was recommended by the USSR... Religion and state must be seperate entity`s.. is how Castro put it.

No.

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Or is there room for religion in communism?

No.

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Originally posted by Fist of Blood+--> (Fist of Blood)Some will tell you that communism and religion cannot co-exist peacefully, but I believe they can.[/b]

Well, much turns on what you actually mean by the word "peacefully" in this context.

To a Christian, the communist act of demolishing cathedrals is not "peaceful" at all.

On the other hand, the Christian myth of communists "shooting all believers" or "putting them in jail" just "because they're religious" is pretty ridiculous.

We intend (or should intend!) to do "to" the Christians no more than what they did to their own predecessors. We will prohibit the public manifestations of their superstitions...in the certain knowledge that religion "withers away" in the dark.

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Originally posted by CrazyModerate If people believe [that] a god exists that doesn't intervene [in our universe], then how is there a problem?

Speaking purely abstractly, there is no "problem" with such a belief.

But there would be no purpose in "worshiping" such an utterly indifferent deity...or even caring whether anyone else "believed" in it or not.

And this would logically imply that all those who claimed to "speak for god" were and are liars and all "holy books" that purport to tell us "how god wants us to live" are brazen forgeries.

A "god" that "doesn't intervene" in our universe is not very useful.

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Why must we follow exactly what Marx said?

That's not really the point. What modern and serious revolutionaries must ask themselves now is more along the lines of: what did Marx actually say about this or that particular controversy and was he right or was he wrong about this?

For example...

What Did Marx "Get Wrong"?

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What does the history of the world and the existence or non-existence of a god(s) have to do with the problems capitalism creates?

Both religion and capitalism have histories. They are "the way they are" because of the specific material conditions that gave birth to them and shaped them over the centuries of their existence.

The world is not like an old-style "blackboard" that you could just "wipe clean" and then write "whatever you wanted" on it.

Indeed, the project of "changing the world" has turned out to be much more complicated than revolutionaries once thought it would be.

To take just the example you cited, it was once believed by nearly everyone that prayer was the only way to "change the world".

There are still a lot of people who believe that.

And they are and have always been WRONG!

In fact, "prayer" changes nothing because there are no gods.

Thus it becomes very important to completely discredit this false theory of "how to change the world".

That is what we really mean by the word "learning", is it not? We reject whatever misconceptions that we held on a particular subject due to our ignorance and accept a more accurate understanding of that subject.

When one rejects entirely all supernatural "theories", then one can learn how the world really works.

And then, if one desires, one can effectively CHANGE IT.

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Originally posted by viva le revolution It isn't about god, it's about the moolah!

Yes indeed. Beneath all the godbabble of our era is a very grubby capitalist ethic.

My father's a great tv preacher.
My mother speaks out against sin.
My sister fucks network producers.
My God, how the money rolls in!

Or see...

A Glimpse into the Godracket

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Originally posted by anomaly Christianity is one of those 'few religions' which believes that God does not interfere. On the issue of prayer, God, according to Christians, really just says yes or no, depending upon reasoning we cannot hope to understand (I'm sure you atheists love that little part, don't you). But, in truth, Christianity teaches that God has, essentially, deserted the human race for awhile.

Resisting the temptation to have some rhetorical fun with this one, I think some evidence of what Christians really believe is in order here.

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Originally posted by Jeff Sharlet After church, I walked across the parking lot to the World Prayer Center, where I watched prayers scroll over two giant flat-screen televisions while a young man played piano. The Prayer Center—a joint effort of several fundamentalist organizations but located at and presided over by New Life—houses a bookstore that when I visited was called the Arsenal (its name has since been changed to Solomon’s Porch), as well as “corporate” prayer rooms, personal “prayer closets,” hotel rooms, and the headquarters of Global Harvest, a ministry dedicated to “spiritual warfare.” (The Prayer Center’s nickname in the fundamentalist world is “spiritual NORAD.”)... In the chapel are several computer terminals, where one can sign on to the World Prayer Team and enter a prayer. Eventually one’s words will scroll across the large flat screens, as well as across the screens around the world, which as many as 70,000 other Prayer Team members are watching at any point in time. Prayers range from the mundane (real-estate deals and job situations demand frequent attention) to the urgent...

Soldiers of Christ -- Inside America's most powerful megachurch

I highly recommend this article for its insights into Christian fascism in the United States.

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Originally posted by Serpent Maybe slightly off-topic, since I am neither a Christian nor a communist, but I do not know why communists historically have targeted organised religion. Of course, the churches are often a stronghold of remaining reactionary forces, but since they often hold a certain popularity, the best thing would be to offer them cooperation.

Well, as you said, you are "not a communist"...so you don't know that real communists do not "cooperate" with reactionary forces.

Even if they're "popular".

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In the present-time Russia, about two thirds of the population counts themselves as Christians, despite 70 years of active persecution of the church. A majority of the Russians want the orthodox church to handle education.

Have you been hanging out at Eastern Orthodox websites lately?

I very much doubt if more than 5% of modern Russians have any use for religion at all. The idea that education should be run by the church is so reactionary that even most Americans would reject it.

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The Swedish church itself could largely be said to be run by socialists. It has done very much in order to help immigrants, people with alternative sexualities as well as supporting cultural projects which could be said to be "progressive".

Possibly true...but remember that Swedish "socialists" are actually bourgeois reformists who have no intention whatsoever of challenging the fundamental class relationships of Swedish capitalist society.

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Originally posted by danny android A communist society should not infringe on anyone's human rights; religion in my mind is a human right.

Capitalists think that "profit" is a "human right". Slaveowners thought that "owning slaves" was a "human right".

Preachers think that fleecing the suckers is a "human right".

Communists think that growing up in an environment completely free of toxic superstitions is a "human right".

We'll see whose version of "human rights" prevails.

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Sanjee

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@ Religion is something that helps you to become a good Human.

That's like saying the AIDS virus "improves your health".

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guerrillero

On the matter of Fidel Castro's bizarre infatuation with the Catholic superstition, see these two collections...

Communists and Religion -- Part 15

Castro Pays Homage to a Dead Pope

The Cubans did close down some of the churches during the period of "revolutionary enthusiasm"...but they didn't demolish any of them.

They should have torn them all down!

Even worse then that, a god that wouldn't intervene would be a bastard.