to the firat part wtf i dont giv a shit about america they were the ones that screwed over the other countries, i know it sounds harsh but they had it coming they could hardley expect to invade another country and get away scot free especially against a group like al queda. (i apologise if this sounds harsh and i share the pain that america felt when the towers came down but its the truth)

to the second part i cant really say because im not in the IRA but i admit that they didnt deserve to die they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

to the third part thats just a really bad example and you made it way to personal, country is one thing but family is completely different

to the fourth part why are you laughing at him why dont you read a book form the irish perspective instead of the shit they spoonfeed you at school

would you mind replying to my previous post so i can actually understand why you hate the IRA so much?

No, lets get it right. I'm a communist, and communists oppose the murder of innocent civilians just because they happen to be protestant.

There is absoultely no defence for excecuting innocent people based on their background, so don't justify it with all that "The conditions were this...the conditions were that...imperialism...." bollocks, because at the end of the day they chose to execute innocent workers just because they were protestant, just like how racists have attacked and killed black workers for being black, etc etc. It is murder of workers based on their background.

Being of Irish descent and well read, I don't need your condescending remarks about not understanding this or that. I didn't say the IRA or other militant Republicans were fascist, I just compared the murder of innocents base don the background as similar to the innocent murdering of anyone based on their background, ethnicity etc.

If the UVF, with its link to neo-nazi groups and its awful atrocities, is killing Irish Catholic workers for no reason, killing innocents, why would the Republicans and its 'left' respond in the same way by killing innocent Protestant workers? Because killing people for being Protestants is just as bad.

And before I get more of the bullshit about not understanding the situation, I'm a republican, I just don't fetishise criminal murdeorus gangs in the name of "fighting Imperialism". This was a dirty war and both sides did fucked up things. Based on ideology and goals, the Republicans are in the right, but they commited atrocities, just as the UVF did, and these are inexcusable and as a communist I will never support the barbaric murder of workers who were killed for being Protestant. Never.

Because as an Anarchist I will always side with the innocent people, innocent workers, against any threats or intimidation regardless of who it comes from. Fuck sectarianism and arogant and blind unrealistic arugments against imperialism which support the innocent murder of workers.

"Skki", you can consider yourself verbally warned for flaming. Thanks and I look forward to serving you again.

It has never been suggested by me or anyone else who has posted in this thread that the killing of Protestants was a "good thing" or that it was a necessary part of the liberation struggle, but your error lies in the fact that you see the violent actions of the IRA and the actions of the UVF (or any other fascist gang) as morally equivalent, and so you have adopted an abstract system of morality which judges actions solely on the basis of the immediate outcome without considering the political position of the actors involved. In reality, both sides were guilty of killing civilians, but the actions of the IRA were intended to strike a blow against the oppression of the British state to protect the rights of the Irish people, whereas the UVF aimed to maintain a system of oppression, and so communists should have given their support to the IRA, as fighters for the rights of the oppressed and exploited majority. A parallel can be drawn with the Israel-Palestinian conflict, as although the violent sections of the Palestinian movement have committed acts of barbarity such as attacking buses full of civilians, the Palestinians occupy the position of the oppressed, and that is what makes their struggle legitimate, regardless of which tactics they use.

who tries to justify it? I don't. The IRSM has and had many Protestant members.

we don't try to excuse it or justify it at all. it was flat out wrong, most republicans held their heads in shame over it, found it demoralising. And it did a lot of damage to the republican project.

however the fact remains that Kingsmill was an aberration, which I've already addressed, did you not see this.

I'd challenge the legitimacy of the national liberation struggle in the end generally, which as most guerilla groups have, seems to have become detached from its goals and the people it supports. And I think the means have a big influence on the ends. You're a hypocrite if you claim to fight for freedom of the Irish people and, as the IRA and the INLA have in their founding delcarations and aims, claim to be working towards socialism via bombing innocent people and shooting Protestant workers.
Both sides went to peace because they realised an isolated violent conflict wouldn't solve anything and was making things worse, because it just gets bitter, back and forth killings.

Of course I'd say the UDA and UVF were worse than the IRA, anyday, but as an Anarchist I'd find it hard to support national liberation movements which terrorise and kill innocent people. Nothing complex in there.

Claiming you're out to free the people from oppresion is not a justification for your acts. Its jsut something to hide behind. I'm an Anarchist, and I'd never set off a bomb on or kill anyone who is innocent, because it goes against what I am fighting for, which is freedom, peace and equality for everyone. If you're executing Protestant workers, thats not freedom for them, its not peace for them, and although in comparison to brutal and cold blooded murder its appears almost a minor point, it's discrimination. It's the same as race killings, in the sense that its killing someone based upon an identity which they have which hurts no one and they dont want to change, or maybe cant. These guys and many others were singled out on both sides based on their backgrounds. Unjustifiable, and barbaric, and a betrayal of any cause of freedom. I think alot of people here need to realise that sectarian murder of workers or anyone innocent is not a vlaid tactic for any communist to support.

I've supported a free and united socialist Ireland all my life, but thats not the same as supporting people who set off bombs against innocent British people and execute my fellow workers.

Oncemore, I don't support the murder of workers based on their backgorund because I'm a communist and I don't appreciate predjudice based on whether someones a protestant, a catholic, black or white, etc. The guys who shot those Kingsmill workers deserve to rot in hell, just like the UVF, the UDA, Paisley and Thatcher do. Fuck everyone who murders and attacks the innocents, fuck anyone who attacks and murders the working class.

Do you listen? War is never pretty and it's inevitable that unfortunate incidents like these are going to occur. Both the IRA and the INLA made mistakes and carried out attacks that they never should have, but that in no way invalidates the entire struggle they carried out for national liberation and socialism.

Yeahhhh. Well said, man.

I'd question the true motives of a group who take it upon themselves to bomb civilians and execute workers for being protestants. Anyway, towards the end of ther struggle they became effectively armed criminal gangs in the end anyway, carrying out drugs deals and robberies to fund themselves when the struggle dried up. Just a fact. They shamed the republican socialist cause, to be honest.

I find it funny when so called communists support organisations who killed innocent workers just because of their background. But hey ho.

I also find it funny how you'd call a self proclaimed Anarcho-Communist of whom you know nothing about in real life middle class, when its pretty safe to assume that being an Anarchist, he's working class.

I find it funny you'd criticise people for typing on a forum rather than doing something productive for their community when you're on a forum debating Irish Republicans too.

I am active in fighting 'Imperialism', in the sense that I'm involved in anti-War campaigns, but I'm critical of the IRA in its most modern forms. Am I middle class and useless? Clearly not, because I sell my labour for just above the minimum wage and I am as active as anyone, in Anarchist groups and the syndicalist movement.

War is ugly, but executing innocent workers when you claim to be fighting for freedom and to some extent, socialism, thats more than an ugly war. Thats a betrayal of your supposed ideology and morals, and any serious socialist would never do it.

Im a Republican Socialist and reading your comments I would agree with the vast amjority of what you say.
There is no excuse for Sectarian killings on either side and any Republican Socialist who does commit such crimes not only spits on the beliefs of Republican Socialists but also becomes part of the state sponsered terrorism.
The only one Sectarianism benefits is British Imperialism.
The likes of those who committed Kings Mill should be treated no different to the murdering Loyalist Death Squads.

But as for your comment which I have quoted.
Very poor comrade.
The Republican movement is not involved in drug dealing nor has ever been involved in drug dealing.
It is pure black propaganda.
Ask a working class Nationalist from Belfast, Derry etc and they will all verify this.
In fact alot of Republicans take a very reactionary stance with regards drug delaing, knee capping dealers and the like.
So please dont buy into the black propaganda of drug dealing.
As for bank robberies, I see no problem with that.
An army needs to buy guns ya know?

Who does 'black' refer to in black propoganda? The Brits or the Unionists or both?

I thought it was a widespread fact that some of the IRA groups, especially the smaller splinter ones later to disarm, had carried out drug dealing, kidnappings etc after the peace process was agreed upon to fund themselves. Just like how the FARC leadership has become focused on making moeny from drugs and kidnappings, its what often happens with armed groups in long and uniwinnable struggles.

Black propaganda refers to both the British Imperialists and their colonial mouth pieces in the North, eg the Unionists.
Even in the Free State there is widespread black propaganda about Drug Dealing and Republicanism, especially from the Sunday World tabloid.
Not only is their a sinister propaganda element but it also makes for sensationalist articles which unfortunately sells papers.
The INLA gets a particularly bad rep from the rags, its all to discredit the movement.
When all one has to do is research the topic and see that not on INLA man in its history was ever convicted of dealing.
Sure even the likes of Patsy O'Hara (died on hunger strike) was called a hood and a dealer.
These allegations have been floating about for decades but yet no evidence has ever been produced.
The sad fact is that now PSF partake in spewing out such lies as they are now firmly part of the establishment.
Dont believe what you read, the papers and their sources all have agendas.

For the person who said the IRA killed workers, who the heck is to say they're workers?

Whatever your say, Ian Stuart.:P

So theres no proof of the criminal activities?

Because they were killed in a bus which was transporting them for their workplace towards home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsmill_massacre

What the fuck is with the Ian Stuart reference? Who was that directed at and why?

Define criminal activities?
There are certainly bank robberies and the like.
But certainly not drug dealing.
I actually read there recently a new article alleging the Contos run brothels.
Its absolutely absurd.
If the Republican struggle was just a front for pimps and pushers I would have no assosciation with it what so ever.

Its ironic though because the Loyalists are self confessed pushers.
The UDA just became a drug gang.

These people talk like those do who are justifying murders by the imperialists in the Middle East. "It was an aberration". I have heard that before when civilians have been massacred. The same as "unfortunate incidents like these are going to occur".

Of course it is a well known fact that the Provisional IRA killed more civilains in its war that it did British soldiers.

In fact, in the worst years of the war (1974-76), the IRA killed 91 protestant civilians. Were they all aberrations, or was a definite policy of sectarian murders being implemented.

A good example of this type of murders would be the machine gunning of five people in Newtonhamilton in 1975.

No I know very well that Protestant paramilitaries killed more Catholics than this over the same period, and expect those who would support sectarian murders to use this as a justification.

It is only a useful justification though for those who would argue for national, or ethnic politics, not to socialists who would argue for class unity.

What is intended isn't really the point. The point is that the sectarian murders committed by both sides objectively acted to destroy any prospect of class unity. It is hard to argue for class unity across sectarian divides, even harder when people are murdering each other, and in no way helped by one of those sides doing it in the name of socialism.

This is the argument of those who would always stoke the fair of ethnic conflict; "they started it".

This poster at least has some class feeling. One would have to ask why he is a supporter of an organisation that perpetuates these type of actions.

Devrim